The Dark Knight vs. The Avengers



fuck i don't know, think i need to see the avengers again before i can make up my mind, for now i like the dark knight more

Dark Knight still for me.

Dark Knight, as it's the more refreshing of the two because it takes itself seriously and doesn't rely on slapstick humor or pop-culture references like so many in the genre do. Dark Knight for the Win!

Tough call. It's not as though Avengers is completely without weakness; Scarlett Johansson is still lousy in action (though better than previously); Whedon isn't great at shooting non-powered-up hand to hand combat (but those scenes are brief); the Dr's deus ex machina 'override'; a couple of cheesy lines nearing the end; the relatively little screen time given to Thor and Hawkeye; the villain design that seemed to be almost ripped from Halo (yeah, yeah, comic back story)... Taken as a unit however, Avengers moves beyond its weaknesses and simply entertains the way a comic-book blockbuster should. This film is gonna have some serious replay value. The little nods to comic fans (Stark vs Rogers, Thor vs Hulk, the post-credits scene) were delightful and that tracking shot nearing the end (moving from one hero to the next) is divinely shot to be exactly the way a Saturday morning cartoon's opening credits/intro would be. There's a fuckload of other great stuff too, but I won't go into details right now. As for allegations of pop-culture references, well, I'm perplexed. Since when is it a bad thing for mainstream pop culture to reference pop culture? That's what comic books do, so why shouldn't their adaptations be afforded the same latitude? Also, there wasn't a whole lot of slapstick. There was very little in fact, so I'll put that down as a thin search for excuses. All that being said, is Avengers better than the immensely enjoyable TDK? Not sure yet. TDK has weaknesses too, and, as SquareMaster says, it takes itself much more seriously. When you have dumbassery and weakness in a lofty, self-important type movie, those dumbasseries and weaknesses are only magnified (*cough* retarded boat scene *cough* hackneyed soundbites *cough* over-reliance on music for pacing *cough* Maggie Gyllenhaal *cough*). I'm gonna let flickchart decide which film should come out on top.

Not a tough call at all. Avengers is the class of the genre and soon that will be a consensus. Avengers is exceptional in every way.

The Dark Knight is still the premier comic-book movie.

"Avengers" is a odd to Marvel fans,a nerdgasm that won't fail anyone that expect a lot from it. A good blockbuster. But when compared to DC's best superhero entry yet,that's the difference: "Dark Knight" is a good MOVIE. It won't ever fade away from a charter. EVEN if you despise comic books. *Quick note: I actually like Marvel A LOT more when compared w/ DC,since i was a kid. I'm just being fair. *

For all it's cool action and sense of fun, The Avengers does come up somewhat short in terms of story and characterization. Those things aren't its focus; fair enough. But to me, The Dark Knight is the richer movie of the two. Better characters, more memorable visually, and with better villains. No offense, Loki. I still <3 you.

Perfect analysis Eshegnev!

Close call, as expected, but TDK still is the better movie, while Avengers is the more fun one.

While The Dark Knight is a better movie, The Avengers is a better superhero movie. The Dark Knight Rises, I'm counting on it to beat out the overpopularity of both of these movies, anyway.

I really think Avengers has topped my list as being the best superhero movie. I'm sure TDKR will replace it but that's not for some time. Avengers gets it.

I could not have been more ecstatic walking out after The Avengers. It was certainly the more entertaining between the two, even though it lacks the tension that is very much present in Dark Knight. I'm gonna go with The Dark Knight, but I really can't wait to see Avengers again.

Oh wow, last time I checked Avengers' global ranking was around 83. Now it's 15! Can't wait to see it.

I don't remember the last time I had as much as fun at the movie theater as I did with the Avengers. It delivered in every way I could hope. It wins for me...

Avengers was the most ambitious comic book film of all time, and that ambition paid off. It's NOW the best comic book film of all time bar none. No one involved in the Avengers production seemed to take anything for granted. It truly is the gem they had promised and truly is a worthy holder of the crown. TDK is a different tone and not as balanced nor as much fun as Avengers.


I dont know. Dark Knight is starting 2 go down my list while The Avengers is going up my list. Avengers: great action and probably funniest superhero movie. Dark Knight: Darker and richer and great characters, great action, better story. DEAD TIE, but slightly like just barely im saying The Avengers.

The Avengers was the most anticipated movie for me. The Dark Knight, yeah but not as much as The Avengers.

Global Ranking for The Dark Knight is #1, guess what's next at #2, THE AVENGERS!

Stolen from a review of the Avengers: If The Dark Knight is the Citizen Kane of superhero movies, then The Avengers is the Forrest Gump. One is the greatest, and one is good enough to still be on TNT every other night.

Heath Ledger has the best single performance in a movie ever. But as a whole the Avengers wins out over Dark Knight.

I gotta go with The Dark Knight at the moment. Just wait for The Avengers to grow on me.

Aaaand The Avengers has become the #1 movie on Flickchart! Will it stay there? Only time will tell.

My hype has died down for The Avengers since I first saw it. The Dark Knight is still the masterpiece that it is. Avengers does have some great writing and characters, sure, but not even all actors in it can top Ledger's performance in Dark Knight. Simply amazing. I'm going with The Dark Knight.

I'm never going to claim The Dark Knight is perfect. But it's near perfect for me. I love it. The Avengers was a heckuva lot of fun, and I look forward to watching it again. Big, brainless action that I enjoy, some good character beats...but, as has been mentioned, it's a little thin on story. The Dark Knight has a story. For the most part, I think it's better acted, too (though that's a close call). Personally, I like a little more substance with my comic book fun, and hell, I just like Batman better than anybody in The Avengers. (The Joker only cinches the deal. Though I will say this: Loki is one of the better villains in a comic book movie.)

The feeling I had seeing The Dark Knight in theaters is one of the most satisfying experiences I've had as a moviegoer and it makes it a really difficult film to compete against - especially when it's another superhero film. The Avengers was solid from beginning to end and its a miracle considering the amount of characters and back-story Joss Whedon had on his hands, but Christopher Nolan's vision of the Bruce Wayne/Batman saga is on another level altogether. With that said, if The Avengers had tried to be the next TDK it would have failed miserably. It's hype and extreme popularity is because it is completely sure of itself. Should it have focused on more plot and character development? Yes and no. When you have six lead actors and a boatload of supporting characters, Whedon would have had to more than double the refreshingly brisk two-hour running time in order to make them all three-dimensional figures. The most logical solution would have been to let the individual franchises breathe a little more - Thor could have used a sequel and it would have been nice to see Mark Ruffalo get a Hulk movie of his own first. In the end though, what we have here are two wonderfully entertaining films. I'd recommend both to anyone, but The Dark Knight is the superhero movie to see even for those who do not like movies about superheroes.

Avengers is simply an outstanding movie on every level. Yes, it is THE best adaptation film of all-time. Sorry Batman fans. Avengers is smart, intense, and well acted like TDK but it's far more thrilling, fun and funny. That raises the bar no matter what the Nolan disciples try to claim.

VERY close matchup. The Avengers comes to close to beating the legendary Dark Knight, but just falls short. Maybe Dark Knight's sequel will be a worthy contender as the GOAT.


The Avengers is definitely my second favorite super hero movie, but neither the plot nor the villain was interesting enough to top The Dark Knight, imo. Still, it's a great, great movie. Just not Dark Knight great.

Okay, so The Avengers was #1 yesterday, now it's #80. ????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????????

its pretty annoying, I think they wanna get more movies made before the 2000's up there because of their influence and legendary status/

Connerwood1998 is right.The global rankings have changed drastically.TDK has slipped down to no. 35.I smell a conspiracy.

No conspiracy, the staff just changed the algorithm used to compile the global chart. You can read about (and comment) on the blog.

Yep, DavintheCave is right. You can read about it in the article 'The Dark Knight Falls'. I guess Dark Knight takes the lead again.

Who cares about who can stuff the ballot box better? Both films are well crafted and a far cry from the dark days of comic adaptation films. Personally, I feel Avengers is the better all-around film. Does that mean I'm going to take TDK off my DVD shelf and burn it? Hell no. So, Avengers hit its high mark and paid off what five other high quality solo films set up. How can fans of the genre not love that?

The Dark Knight has phenomenal depth, iconic texture, and has far more complex themes to explore than Avengers. It truly is a masterpiece of cinema.

The Avengers is like a really great hamburger. It doesn't do anything new, but it does the old very, very well. The Dark Knight is like if you took that same beef and made a steak. It pushes the envelope and succeeds in taking the superhero film genre to the next level.

Both are hands down the best comic book/superhero films ever but I would give the edge to The Dark Knight. The Avengers earns a very solid 9 out of 10 from me but The Dark Knight is a 10.

I think it depends on what you're in the mood for. The Dark Knight is an amazing, dark, serious, action film while Joss Whedon does an equally amazing job directing a superhero-filled mostly comedic film. Dark and serious, or light(er) and funny? I think The Dark Knight just barely edges out The Avengers, because I think more people are attracted to a serious superhero film.....possibly? That's my 2 cents.

You Dark Knight clones make me sick. Avengers is by far the better film due to Joss Whedon's masterful touch and superb believable and human performances with just the right amount of comedy.

Dark Knight is a much better film than Avengers due to superior performances, stronger plot, deeper themes that are masterfully explored and downplaying unnecessary humor to be very subtle so as to give the film a true feeling of tension throughout.

It's not even close and everyone knows it. (Most everyone). Factoring in the phenomenal general audience word of mouth, fan and critic high praise and the remarkable box office means everything points to a vast majority believing Avengers is the undisputed genre king. It's just a better film, period.

Seeing as how the majority of film critics and film goers still consider the Dark Knight to be the top film of the genre, along with Nolan being a flawless director seemingly incapable of being involved with a bad film, I have no doubt that the Dark Knight Rises will be the top film of 2012.

The Dark Knight is the BEST Superhero film of all time. The Avengers is a tough runner-up however.

Well, most feel The Avengers is the BEST Superhero film of all time and they are right. Maybe TDKR can take the title and that's an exciting thought. I love how this modern era keeps raising the bar in terms of superhero films. As long as we keep getting great films, let the debate continue. It's fun and we all win!

I think the choice is pretty close but Dark Knight beats even the best.

The Dark Knight is the better movie, though the Avengers is very fun

I like The Avengers. I understand the tendency for people to choose the more serious, psychological film but I don't identify with Bale's Batman much. Nolan's first two Batman stories are like terrorist allegories about how far people ought to go in fighting those bent on destroying society. But after so many Batman movies over the years and so many actors playing the character as an obsessed, vengeful near anti-hero, I'm just a little tired of him. No superhero can be wound that tight and keep going for so long. In contrast, The Avengers is unpretentious and simply delevers the greatest superhero brawl on film.

Easily The Avengers. The only reason it is not higher is because not enough people have seen it yet.

ah this review will be fun. ok first let me say that there is a difference between eyecandy and complex storytelling and structure. The Avengers and The Dark Knight might as well be the greatest comic book movies of all time. starting with The Avengers. The Avengers features a couple of the greatest superheros of all time in one movie. Thor Iron Man Captain America Hulk and others. The Dark Knight features Batman probably one of the most iconic characters of all time, not just superheros who has a disurbed past. The Avengers has one of the most unsoppable villians Loki who has a back story of why hes so crazy. The Dark Knight has one of the most notable and iconic villian of all time, the Joker, who has no back story and is a complete menacing psycho path. as you can tell the dark knight is sounding like a deeper movie. The Avengers is full of comic books greatest hits. explosions, action, alien spaceships terrorizing citizens, pieces of shit just flying all over the place, superheros fighting against each other, comedy, mayhem,great effects. just an all out war featuring your favorite superheros. The Dark Knight however features elements for crime thrillers. crime leaders and crime rings. love triangle. taking control, money, toying with the good guy by playing mind games, police, detectives, and politics. The Avengers is all a fanboy can want. while The Dark Knight is a a deep psychological charcter study. that was to long of a commet lol. what do you think about it

Dark Knight, Dark Knight is the better movie though Avenger's is more fun but i'd watch DK more

There are very few things that Avengers doesn't do better than TDK. Every thing that matters favors Avengers bigtime.

I love Joss Whedon. The Avengers is an amzingly entertaining movie. That being said, The Dark Knight is a masterpiece (along with Batman Begins) and Christopher Nolan is a better film maker, it is a better movie, story wise, character wise, thematically. The score and cinematography are more expertly done (props to Hans Zimmer and Wally Pfister). Avengers while entertaining, theres not much meat on the bones, The Dark Knight is such a rich and layered movie and is about something and has subtext, its poetic and profound and it would still be a brilliant movie if you replaced the Batman characters with normal characters. Its not about spectacle, its about characters and society. It is a better film.

the dark knight, no doubt. the avengers is awesome, but not as near as the dark knight.

To me, Avengers is the true masterpiece even though TDK does its job quite well. Avengers bringing everything together and perfectly completing Marvel's "Phase One" makes it as epic as anything the genre has ever even tried.

They're both overrated, but The Dark Knight is waaaaaaay better than The Avengers

I think The Avengers is a little bit overrated. It was very fun to watch it but it is no match against TDK. It had too many heroes and thus lacked the focus on them. It showed no improvement about heroes' stories. Except Thor and Loki, maybe. TDK had an incredible story and it's far superior in every fields. It is one of the best movies ever. A true classic.

ACTION: The Avengers SEX APPEAL: The Avengers STORY: The Dark Knight VILLAIN: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, Joker beats Loki, ANY DAY!!!

The Dark Knight took superhero movies to a whole new level.

TDK was a great movie but it is no match for The Avengers. *Spoilers* Rachael's death was nothing compared to Agent Coulson's death. I was glad when Rachael died and you couldn't stop think about Coulson after leaving the theater.

Rachel's death was far more tragic and had a much greater effect throughout the Dark Knight. Coulson was forgotten by the film, and by me, in about 5 minutes.


... My friend had to remind me who Coulson was. Rachel's death actually meant something and was a big deal in the movie. Coulson was disposable. So his death brought The Avengers together -- who didn't see that coming? I did.

Can't have it both ways. You can't say you didn't know who Coulson was and then say you saw it coming.

havent added avengers to my list yet but I saw it last night and thought the dark night was far superior, but avengers was a decent action movie that kept me interested at least

Dark Knight anyday! The predictable storyline spoils everything for Avengers

Dark Knight is great but The Avengers was so much better and had no plot holes. While The Dark Knight had many plot holes.

As excellent as The Avengers is, the Dark Knight remains the best comic book movie.

"Avengers had no plotholes" Except for the fact that they could all talk to each other during battle with no communication devices. Not to mention that the Hulk can suddenly turn his transformation on and off like a lightswitch when he couldn't before.

Is this even up for discussion? Dark Knight is a fantastic film, one that transcends the genre, Avengers is just an excellent genre film.

Such a hard decision :/ ...

Oh please, The Avengers is such a childish film, silly and just stupid. The Dark Knight is much better, better cast, plot and you just can't compare Loki to The Joker. The Dark Knight is simply better.

I find it a damning expose of film fans that the perceived distinction between these two movies is that Avengers is dumb fun whilst TDK is profound or more intellectually substantial. TDK is an incredibly entertaining film and I have no qualms with people picking over Avengers for that reason. But let's not kid ourselves, it's not a clever film. I could argue that it's dumber than The Avengers (which I don't actually consider a dumb film).

The Dark Knight is a crime thriller that has multiple themes going on, about morality, right vs wrong and order vs anarchy, The Avengers is just a simple alien invasion movie with colorful superheroes. The aliens want to take over the world, superheroes stop them, the end. It's not much more than that. I agree with ilf1998 that it's dumb, especially in comparison to The Dark Knight. But it's not dumb in a bad way.

People seem to struggle with the comprehension of the word "dumb". Is the Avengers dumb because it doesn't aspire to be an essay on the human condition? Is every movie that disregards loftiness and pseudo-intellectualism in favour of something else therefore dumb? That'd make Star Wars, the Indiana Jones films, LOTR, The Dollars Trilogy, Terminator and a whole host of other movies dumb. (Note: Some of those movies might actually be dumb, but that's neither here nor there.) Not attempting to wax intellectual =/= dumb. Is the back of a cereal box dumb because it doesn't sermonize about Newtonian physics? Of course not, but that's the same formal fallacy that many are pursuing. This is the same argument you here from Immortal Technique and Nas rap fans, just in reverse. "Dawg, that bre be rappin' about politics and shit! Real talk from a lyrical genius, B." Nonsense. Why can't one be dumb about allegedly "smart" content and smart about allegedly dumb content? Lofty content doesn't imply de facto intelligence. Execution is what counts. The Avengers intelligently juggles its characters through a generously witty script. Not to say it doesn't occasionally dive into the realm of the insipid, because it does. Now look at TDK. Firstly, I will take your use of both "morality" and "right vs wrong" as a redundancy rather than a semantic separation of 'morality' and 'ethics'. So are tales about morality inherently intelligent? No, because that'd make Ghost of Girlfriend Past a smart film. Are crime thrillers inherently intelligent? No, because that'd make Daredevil and Gigli smart films. Does having multiple themes (which TDK barely has) inherently make a movie smart? No... Legion is the exemplar here. Again, the only fair way to measure this is to look at the execution. Does TDK execute its 'high art' (I despise that term and I use it here loosely) intelligently. The corny dialogue ("hackneyed soundbites" is what I previously wrote) and that truly naive and idiotic boat scene (which is the signature statement in the movie's discourse) would suggest otherwise. That commentary about human ethics that TDK tries to inject into its narrative could be written by anyone that's read Philosophy for Dummies. Lastly, let's not forget that these themes were discussed far more succinctly in another superhero movie that was released a mere 6 years prior to TDK (Spiderman, which is, I admit, a far weaker film). TDK bodies most films in the entertainment department and at its best it is truly badass. But it ain't "smart". The pop-ness vs high-ness thing is not an implicit measure for the brains behind art.

What Cleckley said. I love The Dark Knight. Love it. But for Christ's sake, I wish these people would get off their high horses. Why can't they see it for what it is - an awesome fucking crime thriller. I mean, of all the movies people could have chosen to label 'smart', they chose The Dark Knight. Seriously. "That's they one! That's they one!"

I'll go with the film that didn't feel like Transformers and Independence Day jumbled into one.

You know Cleckley, yes, I was going to say that Indiana Jones is dumb. But I didn't want people to get pissed off and say: 'Wha, Indiana Jones DUMB? Go eat shit.' But fuck it: I love Indiana Jones. It's dumb but I fucking love it. No, they aren't crime thrillers, no, they don't have themes like The Dark Knight. But those movies (at least Raiders and Crusade) are GOOD. The Avengers is GOOD. And I never said that crime thrillers are automatically good movies. Sure, it could've sounded like I implied that (sorry for the confusion), but I didn't. No, Daredevil and Gigli aren't good movies as far as I know (I haven't actually seen them), you don’t hear me say they are. And yes, ‘not attempting to wax intellectual =/= dumb’. But it’s dumb in comparison. Yes, The Dark Knight has some dumb stuff in it and yes, The Avengers does have some smart stuff in it. It’s not black and white, I never tried to imply that. There are a lot of smarter movies than The Dark Knight and there are a lot of dumber movies than The Avengers. You would probably agree that ‘Pokémon: The First Movie’ is dumb IN COMPARISON to ‘The Godfather’. Just as I think ‘The Avengers’ is dumb in comparison to ‘The Dark Knight’. You don’t think that and that is fine. One superhero movie has a big green monster jumping from building to building and the other superhero movie doesn’t. When you really think about it, a movie with a big green monster sounds dumb, right? Take that element out, and you probably have a less dumb movie. The Dark Knight doesn’t have a big green monster, so I personally think The Dark Knight is less dumb. And I personally think the themes in The Dark Knight work. That’s my opinion and that’s subjective, I know. Anyway, is a smart movie automatically good? No. Is a dumb movie automatically bad? No. Dumb =/= bad. Execution does indeed count, and they are both executed brilliantly.

(...I like Independence Day! A lot dumber than The Avengers, but still fun)

Meh. If you gotta tiptoe around people's feelings on the internet, it's gonna be tough to honestly evaluate movies and put your thoughts out there. Likewise, if one's gonna get offended when someone batters a movie one happens to like, maybe the internet is not a safe place for one. Anyway, that's tangential to the debate, and I only mention it because you went out of your way to say that it's OK to disagree. I get that man, and it doesn't irk/offend me in the least. Moving on. "It's dumb in comparison". Same formal fallacy that treats "high-art" as being synonymous with smart. The subject-matter in and of itself is not my yardstick for dumbness/smartness. Fantasy is not dumb by virtue of being fantasy. However, to pander to the argument, a gruff voiced man dressed as a bat that fights a battle of strategy against a smiling dude dressed like a kabuki hooker by tapping into the cellphones of every citizen and creating the world's most efficient lag-free makeshift sonar device... is pretty dumb. That's by your standard of believability, not necessarily by my definition of the word "dumb". I often say that movies only need to make sense in the context of their own universe, and not necessarily in the context of the real world. So, it's not dumb to have a dude walk through walls, but it may be dumb to have a dude walk through the wall and not fall through the floor (not that that would really diminish my enjoyment). That stuff doesn't bother me about TDK. Essentially what you've been saying is that TDK is smarter because it has, by some arbitrary standard, an elevated subject-matter, namely the stuff about the nature and motivation for good and evil. This is what you've said. What I'm saying is not that the subject-matter makes it dumb. I'm saying that that same subject-matter that you consider to be smart is displayed in a sinfully stupid way. Reasoning and ethics are reduced to a silly boat experiment where the passengers on two boats actually believe what a notorious psychopath tells them. And then they get all democratic, but ignore the discussion behind the vote. And the "good" guys are shown to be evil. And the "bad" guys are shown to be good. And the "good" guys on one boat conveniently forget about the "good" guys guarding the "bad" guys on the other boat. And the "bad" guys on the bad boat are actually less evil than the "good" guys on the same boat. Which all adds up to three things. Firstly, it's a sophomoric way to challenge stereotypes. Secondly, that democracy can easily lead to evil. That's not a sentiment I disagree with, but it seems a wholly unintentional by-product of flimsy script-writing. Thirdly, the original point of the boat metaphor (that people will do anything when pushed far enough) is wholly undermined by the big dude that throws the detonator out the porthole. Then Nolan decides to re-affirm that same point by having Harvey jump ship (pardon the pun). But that reaffirmation is also undermined by the fact that Harvey Dent is no longer thinking sanely; he's just nuts. You can't use a nutcase to depict/deconstruct reason because, by definition, he's no longer able to reason. (The Joker, of course, is not unable to reason, he just doesn't give a fuck. He's not nuts in the strict way Dent is, just amoral.) The whole idea behind The Joker is really interesting and I'm a sucker for the deconstruction of morals, behavioural economics and decision making, but maaaan... TDK does not do it well.

I also enjoy Independence Day. Subject-matter wise it's no different from The Avenger. The fact that you can distinguish between the intelligence level of both movies just illustrates my point about subject-matter not being the measure of eggheadery. Also, dumb in comparison only works if two things are comparable. Is singing dumber than integral calculus? Note: I'm not saying that the two films aren't comparable. They are in terms of enjoyment and execution. Just not in terms of subject-matter, because Avengers chooses to eschew any high-order subject matter (though it does fleetingly caress the notion of freedom vs security/power).

@ Cleckley: I understand you didn't like the ferry scene. But in your previous comment, you stressed on the importance of execution. That's where the scene works for me. We are prepared beforehand for this situation through the interrogation scene, in which the Joker more or less talks about the shaky moral foundation of today's society and how even the best of people can fall, perhaps even to his level. The social experiment was an effective and thrilling way to demonstrate that thought. Who knows, maybe the Joker had given them the detonators to their own respective boats, meaning those who let apathy and selfishness overpower them first would also be the first to die. What makes the scene so fascinating and thought-provoking to me is its moral ambiguity. Nobody is right in totality. Of course, we eventually find out that the experiment fails in achieving its main objective but it didn't fail in testing the mindset of the people in the two boats. Partially, the Joker did succeed since the prisoners are shown to have greater clarity in terms of their ability to take what seems to them as the right decision than the hardworking and honest citizens of Gotham. But yeah, TDK takes itself seriously and is grounded in reality. Doesn't necessarily mean it's better. However, if you prefer art mirroring real life, then it's perfectly fine. Those who see films as escapist entertainment hold a different opinion on that matter. Another thing to notice is that Nolan takes a complete u turn from the philosophy of the boat experiment when we see that Dent has indeed fallen to the Joker's level. Perhaps even beneath him. Once again, that's there to encircle the whole morally ambiguous aspect. I understand that Dent had turned into a nutcase but that's the point. Scar someone emotionally enough and you can drive them to commit even the most heinous deeds like pointing a gun to an innocent child's head. Whether it's subtle or not is debatable. If a movie compels me to think for even a second in regard to what it's trying to convey, well then it isn't dumb to me. Applied Sciences division had been working on various projects under Mr. Fox so the whole sonar device plot wasn't that far-fetched. After all, Alfred does have information on almost all the criminals in the world through the records on the criminal database. That's how Alfred knew about Bane and his origins in TDKR. And I still don't understand how TDK is dumber than The Avengers.

"If a movie compels me to think for even a second in regard to what it's trying to convey, well then it isn't dumb to me." Plenty of badly made, dumb films can make the viewer think about what they're trying to convey. Plenty of films make you think because what they try to convey is retarded. Other films are generally well made, but the message that they try to convey is badly constructed, such as TDK. Here's a list: Hero, I Can't Think Straight, The Siege, Teeth, Devil, The Virgin Suicides, High Kick Girl, The Blind Side, Mr Smith Goes to Washington, Crash, Birth of a Nation, Triumph of the Will etc. I don't think that this criterion is an ideal measure of cinema intelligence. "Scar someone emotionally enough..." If you're saying that something this obvious is the overall thesis of the movie then I don't even need to suggest that the subject-matter is elevated and the execution is poor. If this is the case then the subject-matter is just dumb to begin with. That's not even a thesis, it's a statement that makes you go "No shit. Duh." Case in point - Ghosts of Girlfriends Past: The protagonist is a cheating lothario. Why? Because he was emotionally scarred by a woman when he was younger. Another Case in point - Hannibal Rising: Lecter is insane. Why? Nazis made him eat his sister. Fortunately, I don't believe that this is the main contention of the TDK, or of The Joker. As I said, I interpret it as Joker's essay on moral relativism; people being proven as hypocritical. The way the film portrays that is not moral ambiguity, it's confusion. Again, having the "big bad boat man" do the right thing undermines The Joker's point. Having Dent go nuts eviscerates his ability to make a point (beyond the whole "No shit. Duh" thing). Also, I don't remember Joker's interrogation speech in detail, but if I am to take your word for it, well that's make the way the allegory is communicated to the viewer even more sloppy. It's like, "I'm gonna show you, but I don't trust you enough to understand what you're about the see so let me tell you first." You can call it "preparation", I call it weak exposition. Nolan does it in TDKR as well. If I recall he has a bunch of people analyse and monologue about Bruce Wayne/Batman's intentions and motivations. That's one step short of having a psychiatrist tag along with the enigmatic protagonist, just to explain (expose) the guy's thoughts to the viewer. Re the Applied Science thing. Are you saying it's not far-fetched in the context of its own universe. Or in the context of ours? I've already said that it's fine in the context of its own universe (which is why neither Batman's Sonar nor The Hulk's big green-ness bother me). I was simply using it as a parallel to the accusation that MysticSpoon levelled at The Avengers (dumb because of Hulk/fantasy). Why is TDK dumber than The Avengers. The Avengers doesn't seek to enlighten you with an Earth-shattering allegory. TDK fuses its superhero story with an allegory (certainly not Earth-shattering). I can't critique a the intelligence of a film's allegory when it doesn't have one. I can call a film dumb when it has an allegory that happens to be dumb. Also, TDK has dumb, cloying dialogue.

Still a great film though.

I don't see anything wrong if a superhero movie tries to do a little more than just entertain. The Avengers doesn't try to shove some deep philosophy down its viewers' throats while The Dark Knight does try to throw light on various social themes, albeit ineffectively (according to you). You're saying TDK failed, so it shouldn't have even tried in the first place. My point that films that make you think aren't dumb still stands. We're currently having a discussion on the depth of psychological aspects in TDK, or rather lack thereof. It's a bit unfair to throw in TDK's name alongside unsubtle and shameless films like Crash and The Blind Side that use a delicate subject like racism to emotionally manipulate the audience. The Joker's monologue in the interrogation room isn't exposition, it's justification for his actions and a nice way of critically analyzing the shaky foundation of today's fickle minded society. It's what specifies his character's motivations. 'Confusion' isn't exactly a bad word to explain things since The Joker is an anarchist and the ultimate test of your ideals. I didn't say scarring someone emotionally enough is the driving thesis in The Dark Knight. That was just an explanation for why Harvey went nuts. Comparing his character to the dude in Ghosts of Girlfriend's past is just weird. Harvey wasn't just another lame lad betrayed by Mary Jane as a kid. He was the DA of Gotham and expected to lead the fight against corruption. The entire city's future rested on his shoulders for he symbolized the "battle for Gotham's soul". The political implications of his undamaged reputation play a pivotal role in The Dark Knight Rises as well. The emotional damage sentiment works because the stakes are massively high. Harvey knew he was failing a lot of people and so the hopelessness turns into anger. Another film which brilliantly demonstrates the burden of expectation is The Insider, in which Jeffrey Wigand's confessions would have had a massive impact on a multi-billion dollar industry. This isn't the same sh!t as becoming a cheating bastard 'cause some chick dumped you a long, long time ago. Context and execution are very important and TDK has both of 'em going for it. Every film's ideology can be dumbed down to a considerable degree. What exactly does The Matrix (in your top 10) try to convey.... that someone will always be there to rescue you from bullsh!t? That's dumb subject-matter as well. Like you said, execution is what matters the most. The Applied Sciences plot isn't far-fetched because Nolan's films are grounded in reality. Those events are infinitely times more believable than some guy with a magic hammer or some dude who turns green when angry, all of which sounds incredibly stupid in comparison. I just don't see TDK as a dumb film, not even close.

OK, I'm gonna have to split these comments up. The lack of paragraphing on flickchart makes things messy. ----- "You're saying TDK failed, so it shouldn't have even tried in the first place." That's not what I'm saying at all. I don't know why you'd think that. As I noted previously, I'm a sucker for behavioural economics and decision making. The proper use of allegory/metaphor can add a wonderful dimension to a movie. The Matrix is an allegory for ontology (or epistemology, depending on where you draw the line), albeit a very superficial one. On the one hand it can be seen as a typical hero saving the world deal (which is pretty much what Batman is in TDK). On the other hand it can be seen as fight against control (both internal and external). There's not much that is highly evolved about The Matrix, and its not in my Top 10 just because of its philosophy. I'm not transferring my pretensions and conceit onto the film. I like its philosophy. I like the little nods to Baudrillard, Plato and Decartes, the semantics on choice, reality, awakening, saviours... all of that shit adds to the fun. But fuck that, I like The Matrix because its a fusion on MA and anime with a badass colour scheme, a great soundtrack, innovative camera work, beautiful set-pieces, fun costumes, tributes to great action films and is generally entertaining. You know why philosophy students shit on The Matrix? Because they resent the fact that people that don't understand philosophy call The Matrix profound. It's not profound. Some of it is dumb. It's a little unfair to hold a film in contempt of what its fans do/say, but whatever. X-Men: First Class is probably the more fitting comparison for TDK, because it's another film that fucks up its allegory (though in a different way to TDK entirely). If TDK had maybe approached that scene with another way, or maybe tried mining a Prisoner's Dilemma or something, I think it'd be a Top 30 film. Get rid of Maggie Gyllenhaal and it becomes Top 20.

The Applied Sciences plot IS far-fetched and ludicrous BECAUSE the film is grounded in reality. Or rather because the film tries to be grounded in reality. Or maybe because people think its grounded in reality. Me, I have no problem with fantasy. When James Bond does something ridiculous like evade a group of crazed terrorists while driving his car with a mobile phone, that's fine and fun, because these are fantastical action films. When a James Bond film tries to be gritty and realistic and then has him win a poker hand with the most ridiculous showdown ever... that's ludicrous and far-fetched. It's not far-fetched for a film about Witches to involve people flying. It is far-fetched for a film grounded in reality to try and justify this flight by explaining the aerodynamics of a broomstick. No big deal either way. Again, I was simply using the cellphone/sonar deal as a parallel to MysticSpoon's Hulk statement. Neither of these things break the films is my point (because they're legit in the context of their own universes). My other point is that if one breaks the film (ala MysticSpoon) than so does the other. Is one less probable (in the context of our universe) than the other? Sure, but they're both out there man, way out there.

"The emotional damage sentiment works because the stakes are massively high." So then you concede the analogy between Harvey and the dude in GoGP? But one works because its about a politician saving the city from a mentally unstable circus clown (or saving the city from itself) and the other doesn't because the stakes are too personal and trivial? I don't mean to be a sophist, but written like that TDK sounds less reasonable than GoGP. Which it's not. "That was just an explanation for why Harvey went nuts." Like I stated previously - "Fortunately, I don't believe that this is the main contention of the TDK, or of The Joker." But you said: "I understand that Dent had turned into a nutcase but that's the point." I didn't claim that "that's the point" so I was only running with what you suggested "the point" was. There's no need to explain why Dent's developed his psychoses, it's all patently obvious.

Re: Crash and The Blind Side. "If a movie compels me to think for even a second in regard to what it's trying to convey, well then it isn't dumb to me." My point is that triggering thought is not a de facto sign of a movie's intelligence. Maybe you were just being hyperbolic when you wrote "...for even a second..." ----- Can every film's ideology be dumbed down? Yes, that's the reasoning behind reviews/criticisms. No if you don't take an absolutist stance. I dunno man, I like The Avengers, but I'm not an apologist. I like The Dark Knight, but I'm not an apologist. I like The Matrix, but I'm not an apologist. Uncle Fok quoted Welles the other day and I think it's apt: "You could write all the ideas of all the movies, mine included, on the head of a pin."

About the boat thing: the passengers believe the Joker, but is there anything wrong with that? If you were on a boat and a terrorist yelled 'there is a bomb on the boat!', would you say 'pff, yeah, right' or freak the hell out? Sure, the terrorist could be lying, but it's still fucking intimidating. The 'good' guys aren't they blow up the boat? No, because ultimately nobody wants to get their hands dirty. They realise that it's wrong to kill, despite the fact that the majority of the people initially wanted to blow up the other boat. And there's no discussion behind the vote, because 1. THAT is what the voting is for, just a simple question: do you want to blow up the other boat, yes or no? 2. With so many people on 1 boat it's near impossible to talk about it. And they had like what, 30 minutes to decide? 3. In the beginning they CAN'T talk about it, because the army...captain...guard...guy with the remote told them they simply won’t talk about it. ‘It’s a sophomoric way to challenge stereotypes’, I disagree. I can’t really say why, but let me put it this way: if they WERE stereotypes, you still would’ve complained. I would’ve complained. It doesn’t work. If the inmates were stereotypes, they would all really try to blow up the other boat right away. Bye-bye tension. Joker wins, he was right. But people WON’T do anything when pushed far enough. That’s the exact opposite of what the Joker tried to prove, but he was wrong. People are NOT like Harvey Dent / Two-Face: yes, they voted to blow up the other boat, but ultimately they decided not to. Two-Face flips his coin and then decides whether or not he kills someone. He relies on that coin. He isn’t able to reason and doesn’t think about the result, but that’s the point. About the dialogue: eh, yeah, maybe it’s a little annoying at times, but it’s at least better than the cheesy dialogue in (especially the second half of) Batman Begins. And finally, about the Hulk thing (otherwise I keep writing, and I honestly don’t want to): in context of the movie, the Hulk works. But so does surviving a two falls with just a rubber raft in Indiana Jones. It works in Indiana Jones, but c’mon: it’s still dumb. Hulk and his ‘super-jumping’ are dumb. The god of thunder is a superhero: dumb. Captain America throws his shield to hurt enemies: dumb. Now I’m not saying that a guy dressing up as a bat isn’t dumb. Because it is. The Avengers strictly entertains. The Dark Knight tries to do more than that; you gotta give it points for that, even if you think some of it doesn’t work / is bullshit.

So much to read, so much to write: ...even though I'm 18.

It's a movie dude, not my niece. I don't really need to give it points for trying and failing (even though point blank laziness in movie-making is not a good thing). If you're of the position that all fantasy is dumb by virtue of being fantasy (and possibly every piece of storytelling that bends or breaks the immutable laws of physics and probability), than why would you even bother to defend TDK by invoking arbitrary thresholds of acceptability in cinema dumbness? No they don't blow up the boat. What we're told from Boat A is "People are evil, but lack balls". What we're told from Boat B is "People that have done some evil might be good at heart." That's a fucking example of intelligent cinema? That? Water is wet! These are cinema stereotypes. They ARE stereotypes that are set-up up in an experiment to challenge stereotypes that, thanks to the confusion, actually re-enforce stereotypes. So what's the conclusion? The Joker fails in Experiment A (the boats) and can't succeed in Experiment B (because Harvey's morals can't be deconstructed if he's too nuts to understand morality). This means Nolan undermines himself in Experiment A and is confused about the set-up of Experiment B by negating the possibility of a valid pay-off (because it's not a 'Fair Test'). Re: The lack of discussion on Boat A - it's mentioned to them that Boat B is filled with criminals (do they ever question this?) so the dudes on Boat A are morally justified in killing them and one of them says as much. But no-one considers the guards and crew of Boat B. Would have been a more effective piece of commentary if someone explicitly said "Fuck the guards and crew" and removed the need for moral justifications. Like I said, a Prisoner's Dilemma/Ethical Paradox set-up would've made TDK virtually perfect. The vote itself is a dumb expectation of human reasoning in such situations and the movie, again out of confusion, endorses that. The whole “the hero Gotham needs, not the hero Gotham wants” (other than being a nauseating soundbite) is pretty much analogous to “I know what’s best for you”.

"It's a movie dude, not my niece. I don't really need to give it points for trying and failing." Well in that case, The Avengers doesn't even bother to try and automatically fails miserably. "I can't critique a the intelligence of a film's allegory when it doesn't have one". Wait, what does TDK not have- an intelligent allegory or an allegory itself? 'Cause if it's the latter, then you'd be contradicting your previous statements. You confuse me dude. Are you taking the same stand as the makers of Forrest Gump by subtly implying that 'dumb' is good? That flat out dumb flicks are better than SUPPOSEDLY dumb ones which attempt to do something fresh and uncommon in their respective genres? No, the SONAR device angle does work in OUR universe, and it sure as hell works in the realistic background of Nolan's films. What's so hard to believe about a high frequency generator receiver that uses SONAR to triangulate the enemy's exact position? Comparing a technically plausible concept like this to the lame theatricality of The Avengers is just wrong. The level of suspension of disbelief required is minimal, both in comparison and otherwise as well. But in your obsession with finding plot holes, you missed the very moral essence of the scene. Is spying on an entire city to catch one man justified? Does capturing a madman like The Joker come at the expense of a concept as unscrupulous as this? Lucius' exact words to describe the device were "beautiful, unethical, dangerous". And if Mysticspoon says Captain America's shield is pretty damn dumb in comparison, well then he's probably right. Ghosts of Girlfriends past is a shit flick and I have know idea why you keep comparing it to TDK. First of all, when you make a film, characterization is very important. A guy who turns into a selfish schmuck just because some chick broke his heart a long time ago = sh!tty characterization. Harvey and Rachel had been together much longer than the film actually shows. We see at the start of the film that they'd been together a long while. What I'm trying to say is that the film devotes enough time on exploring their relationship so that subsequent events are easy to understand and relate to. Most importantly, Rachel was essential to Harvey' being. She was the only one who loved him for who he was and not for his political persona. Rachel symbolized Harvey's future, a future that promised happiness beyond the superficial power that came with being a DA. Her death along with those severe burns was sufficient to throw him over the edge. Besides, Harvey did have his own inner demons as well. There's a reason why he was nicknamed "Harvey Two-Face" back at Internal Affairs. Secondly, it works because, like I've explained, the stakes are massively high. Such crushing sense of responsibility is enough to bring down even the best of us. The Matrix works because the future of humanity rested on the shoulders of Neo and the gang. Even if it's something on a personal level, there should be something important at stake. That's what works for character driven dramas like There Will Be Blood and Taxi Driver. Thirdly, execution matters, a lot. Both The Godfather and Mrs. Doubtfire share similar themes of family values. Does that mean they're both equally good? Probably not. Unfortunately, Ghosts of Girlfriends Past does none of the above well. I never said Harvey's emotional scarring was the whole point of the film. It's 'the point' in regard to the question you yourself had raised. TDK has no ONE main theme in it. It's composed of multiple allegories, the importance of which lies in the way the viewer interprets the film. The dumbness quotient of a film is relative. The Avengers may be a profound analysis on loss, conflict and teamwork in comparison to a piece of sh!t like Charlie's Angels. But against TDK, it falls flat. "The whole “the hero Gotham needs, not the hero Gotham wants” (other than being a nauseating soundbite) is pretty much analogous to “I know what’s best for you”. Wrong dude. First of all, the line goes something like this: "Because he's the hero Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now". Replacing the word 'deserves' with 'wants' changes the context of the statement completely. This line by Gordon is there to compare and contrast the different perspectives Batman, Gotham's Dark Knight, and Harvey Dent, its White Knight, now held on the chaos and hopelessness in the city. Batman had never given up on Gotham and so although his services would no longer be required for the time being, the little good left in the city deserved a protector of such incorruptible spirit. Dent had lost faith in his ideals and principles and now belonged to the dark side. So an immoral city like Gotham didn't deserve Dent's past heroics, but from a law and order standpoint, that's just what the city needed.

We really should stop all this fighting or else we'll miss the fireworks!

Yes, you do seem confused. How can Avengers fail in allegory when it doesn't have an allegory? "Automatic fail"? Failure/success can only exist post-attempt. The former facilitates, and is indeed reliant, on the latter. Why would I spend all these keystrokes dissecting TDK's allegory and then claim it doesn't have an allegory? Also, why is that you claim to struggle with the use of hyperbolic analogues as a means of deconstruction (ie Ghosts of Girlfriends = Harvey Dent) when you are using them yourself (Doubtfire/Angels)? Both TDK an GoGP employ the same dumbass cliche that every saccharine and unimaginitive movie uses flagrantly: emotional scarring in the past results in immorality/psychoses. TDK just dresses it up as important and allegorical when it is, in fact, unoriginal. Most films use it as a motivation for villainy and then the rest of the film unfolds in a natural manner. TDK makes it a showpiece ending, artifice and all. This analogy I'm using is nothing to do with how much I like/hate the character of Harvey Dent (I like him a lot). The shitness of GoGP is likewise irrelevant. It's the concept of emotional cause and effect that we're analysing. I’m not comparing the films as wholes, just this common contrivance. The idea itself is played out, whether it's some moron in a romcom saying "She hurt my feelings", a villain/politician suffering through a the loss of a loved one, or a serial killer saying his uncle touched him in funny places. It's a cliché, not some genesis that Nolan sprung for us.

I'm not obsessed with finding plot holes at all. I don't need to devalue TDK, nor do I feel gratified by stymieing the overt TDK fanboyism that pervades the site. I'm not looking for plot holes and what I've mentioned about TDK aren't strictly potholes. Once again, the way the film unfolds makes sense in the context of its own universe, so these recriminations are not plotholes (I’m sure I could find some, but they would bear no merit to the discussion). I'm simply stating that the commentary is dumb in an otherwise excellently made film, and I find it ironic that people consider TDK a smart film when all it is a highly entertaining film that tries and fails in parts of its commentary: The Boat mainly, and also Harvey dénouement. ----- You keep explaining why Harvey went berserk. I know why. We all know why. I said it was patently obvious. Half of this thread has been about my dislike for the ‘why’. "Most importantly, Rachel was essential to Harvey'[sic] being. She was the only one who loved him for who he was and not for his political persona." Fortunately, that kind of fetid crap isn't tended to in such a trite and Stephanie Meyer-esque way in the film, because this excerpt I’ve quoted sounds like the kind of dialogue that comes straight out of a shitty romcom. I don't see why this would be your defence.

In the original film Neo's not even sure he's The One until the final few minutes. The only stakes are self-preservation and saving Morpheus. Neo doesn't even know about Smith's impending attack on Zion. The stakes in the sequels are high. But, yes, it’s all relative and it’s totally beside the point anyway. I'm gonna be a little reductive here; essentially what you're saying is dumbass clichés only work when the stakes are high. Why? The cliché is still there and using “the stakes are high” defence at the very least signals that you are cognizant of this. ----- “Deserves”, “wants”. Yes, you’re right that changes the context. Also makes the scene even more nauseating, given Gordon’s pseudo-dramatic monologuing, but yes that changes the final bit of commentary. Not by much, but meh.

Yes, MysticSpoon considers Captain America’s shield dumb. But he is of the extreme opinion that fantasy is dumb by default, and has also said that much in TDK is, therefore, dumb. You and he are not arguing the same case across the board. What he seems to be arguing is that TDK is not dumb in comparison to The Avengers because it is the less fantastical of the two fantasies. Again, I think that’s arbitrary and extreme, but there is a consistent yardstick/rule that he is applying. You, however, seem to be of the opinion that TDK Saga is not only not dumb in allegory (which he agrees with), but it is also not fantastical. It’s a billionaire man dressed as a bat, who trained as a ninja, fighting against an anarchist in make-up, who is a strategic genius, using technology that, currently, defies the laws of probability, and all this to the backdrop of a city that’s swallowing itself up. And you say that this is not fantastical? No matter, I have no qualms with fantasy, nor do I consider it dumb (that’s MysticSpoon’s stance, but he enjoys it nevertheless). You, however, are taking the apologists route. Are you really saying that the cell-phone SONAR is not ridiculous? Do you really wanna go into the ludicrousness of it, scientifically and logistically? With all we know about soundwaves and cones and frequency ranges? The inelegance/inaccuracy of sound detection on cellphones? Their earpiece’s limited range/distance? Sound direction ambiguity? All in real time? With no latency? Then translated into detailed enough visualization to kick ass? Why not just say it’s ridiculous in the context of our universe, but ok given the fantasy? Or would that require the same concession made to Avengers and other such movies? Right, because you say “both in comparison and otherwise aswell”. And, nobody, but NOBODY missed the “moral essence” of the scene. TDK really doesn’t take individuals of extreme perspicacity to crack its subtext. It’s not so profound a film as to leave me beyond my ken. I have no problem with the wiretap metaphor and I talked about freedom/security vis-à-vis The Avengers. That’s good, succinct commentary on part of TDK. If it wasn’t I would’ve called it out as I’m doing with The Boat/Two-Face.

well, on the other hand,

Also, I hate Forest Gump. Flat out dumb films can be entertaining, but I’ve not indicated as much in any of my rhetoric in this thread. I’ve also said that The Avengers is not dumb, nor could even potentially be dumb in the same manner as Forest Gump (which is an overt endorsement of dumb revisionism)… so what are you driving at? The Avengers is not a profound analysis on anything, even in comparison to anything, because it is not attempting to be, from what I can tell (barring a couple of fleeting scenes where Whedon playfulness is a particularly acerbic contrasting of ideologies). The viewer can choose to attribute metaphors to it. I don’t. ----- I don’t consider this “fighting”, nor would I care if it was. It is, however, a pretty damn unfortunate discursive thread on a movie that is offered praise that supersedes its scale.

First of all, did I ever say that fantasy is dumb by default? No. Otherwise I would've considered Lord of the Rings or Pan's Labyrinth overall dumb, and I don't think that. Not to say that those movies are completely 'dumb-free' though, Return of the King for example has Legolas 'yabba-dabba-do'ing an elephant (or 'Mûmakil' if you want to get all technical). I mean yeah, they have almost nothing but elements of fantasy in them, but I don't consider (most of) those elements dumb or anything. Elves are fantasy. The Balrog is fantasy. A giant flaming eyeball on a tower is fantasy. Do I consider those elements dumb? Well, no, but that's my opinion. I consider Captain America's shield to be dumb, yes, but that doesn't mean that it is a fact that it IS dumb. Second of all, I do agree with Piccoloking that The Dark Knight is more grounded in reality (than The Avengers), but I also agree with Cleckley that The Dark Knight does have some dumb shit in it too. The Sonar thing was admittedly pretty dumb, yes. But I’m not saying that just because TDK is therefore dumb just because of that 1 element. I’m not saying that dark grey is black and black only (like Cleckley thinks Piccoloking is saying, I don’t think he’s saying that but who knows) and I’m not saying dark grey can’t be black because it contains white (like Cleckley). Dark grey is black WITH white. It just contains more black than it does white. So I think The Dark Knight has some dumb elements but not as many as The Avengers. And The Avengers has some serious, ‘un-dumb’ (you choose your definition of dumb) elements but not as many as the The Dark Knight. Like I said earlier, it’s not like comparing (pure) black with (pure) white. Finally, about the sonar thing again: is the Sonar “technically plausible” or “ridiculous”? I don’t know, maybe it’s both. It takes already existing concepts (the police can track down where you’re calling from and uses telephone tapping ) and takes it a step further with sonar. That step further is ridiculous because it is technically not possible. But if it can’t exist, then it must be fantasy…and Cleckley is calling it…ridiculous. Hmmm. Fantasy = ridiculous? Anyway, half joking aside, it does seem somewhat realistic if you realise that the basic concepts of telephone tapping and etc. ARE technically possible. So yeah, the sonar thing is ridiculous but it also kind of isn’t.

But I’m not saying that TDK is therefore dumb just because of that 1 element. **

I can accept people with lobsters instead of hands as long as it's properly established and fits the story. What does "dumb" have to do with fantasy or realism? To me something like Saving Private Ryan is an archetypal Dumb Movie because it lacks content and tugs heartstrings in cheap superficial ways.

Look man, every example of "dumb" you used in your Tuesday comment is fantastical. AND you also conceded the point that several of the elements work in the context of their own movies "but, c'mon, they're still dumb". How is one not to infer that you are point blank saying fantasy is dumb and the more elementally fantastical a movie is, the dumber it is? I dunno if you're back-tracking here, maybe not. But why, and I'm just going to quote you point blank, the following: "Elves are fantasy. The Balrog is fantasy. A giant flaming eyeball on a tower is fantasy. Do I consider those elements dumb? Well, no", when you've already said "big green monster" are dumb. I gave you credit for a consistent view, but where's the consistency in any of that? You've also cited not just that "1 element", but the very core idea of Batman as dumb (dude dressed as a Bat - more fantasy). Also, regarding the SONAR: this is like the third time I'm having to clarify: it is NOT dumb/ridiculous in the context of the movie itself, only ridiculous/implausible in the context of our universe and only therefore "dumb" if you are pushing the view that TDK is "grounded in reality" as Piccolo is insisting. EVEN then to me it is dumb ONLY IF the movie, as UncleFok said doesn't "properly establish" the concept. Once again, I have no problem with the SONAR tech in the movie, I only have a problem with Piccolo claiming it is rooted in realism. It's about as rooted in reality as a mutant in X-Men being able to fly because the movie/claims he has an aerodynamic ballsack (that's hyperbole btw, if anyone is uncertain). @UncleFok, that's exactly what I've been saying. Although I like SPR (not because of the emotion, but because of the way the action is shot and the interactions and incidental character byplay) this "archetype" and "superficiality" is exactly what I'm accusing TDK's commentary, and only it's commentary of (well, some dialogue too) of and that is why I am calling it the dumber of the two movies.

Eh...shiat. I guess at the end of the day it all depends of your definition of 'dumb'. No, dumb has nothing to do with fantasy or realism, I agree, that's what I tried to explain as well (although it did indeed seem like I was back-tracking because I used only a few examples). Dialogue can be dumb. Characters can be dumb. Situations can be dumb, fantasy or not. It's The idea of a green monster making superjumps is ridiculous in comparison to things in The Dark Knight. Was the idea well established? Can't really say, because I haven't seen The Incredible Hulk. Maybe that's the problem I have with it *shrug*. On the other hand, the idea of the sonar would've worked better in The Avengers I think. It is a little too ridiculous for TDK. I do think that TDK is more grounded in reality THAN The Avengers is. I mean yeah, sure, every superhero movie ever made isn't 100% grounded in reality. It’s just that The Dark Knight feels more realistic than The Avengers, how implausible some things in TDK may be. So ehm…how to make an end to this discussion? They’re both dumb. They’re both smart. They’re both great movies. Everyone happy.


^ I can heartily cosign.

Tough one but Joker wins!! TDK is on 31 and Avengers is on 32 in my list.


dark knight by a country mile

We're not so different after all. You don't award marks to films that try and fail, and I don't give any credit to films that don't even try. You and I, we're destined to do this forever. If TDK relies on its shallow themes, then what does The Avengers rely on? 2.5 hours of mindless entertainment with nothing more to present than poorly directed action? I'm using the Mrs. Doubtfire example to refute your argument, not to restate it. I specifically said The Godfather is a much better film- technically and thematically. TDK is unoriginal and The Avengers isn't? It basically used the same plot already applied to other blockbuster turds like Independence Day and Transformers 3. The crappines of GoGP is relevant because I did put emphasis on execution. TDK is miles ahead of silly Avengers. You yourself agree with that Orson Welles quote about similar themes in all flicks. The Rachel-Harvey relationship was integral to the story and the film does put emphasis on it. Maybe the manner in which I presented it to you wasn't articulate enough but it's definitely there. There wasn't any need to compare it to Twilight or other sh!tty rom-coms. Besides, you're blatantly ignoring the other reasons I gave in support of my argument. How can the stakes not be high when your freaking life is in danger? Self-preservation is the first law of nature dude. Neo, however, does feel the burden of responsibility as he slowly realizes what's expected of him and how everybody's future depends on it. "essentially what you're saying is dumbass clichés only work when the stakes are high". I stressed on 3 factors- characterization, the magnitude of circumstances and execution. I'm not relying solely on any one of the three while putting across my point. Is LOTR automatically dumb for being fantasy? No because unlike GoGP, it does a fantastic job in all three departments. And I disagree; LOTR has plenty to talk about thematically, even if it isn't exactly relevant to current developments. I don't have to explain why the technology in TDK is a lot less dumber than The Avengers. But it's believable because the technology it uses works on real life concepts. It makes the over the top elements in the film much easier to swallow. These features give TDK a gritty realistic tone since the events could possibly take place in our status quo. We don't have to study all of this in detail. "The Avengers is not a profound analysis on anything, even in comparison to anything". Then why are we still arguing?

It's like you're not reading my comments. It feels like I'm explaining evolution to a Christian. You're so mired in this need to present TDK as deep and intelligent that it sounds ideologically motivated. You're promoting its weaknesses as strengths. I didn't say The Avengers is original. I'm not averse to ripping into The Avengers. There are clear weaknesses in the film, but none are as significant as bad, unoriginal commentary. It wouldn't matter if there were ever more significant weaknesses in The Avengers. All that would do would be to turn your TDK defence into an adhominem attackk. There's a reason I keep using words like "commentary" and "allegory". Nor did I say that The Avengers doesn't try point blank across the board, it just doesn't attempt, specifically, commentary. The Avengers, to me, is about charm, tribute and craftsmanship. Many people think that's not enough, and I have no problem with that. Essentially what you've said is you only credit movies that have a serious bent to them, some presentation of the human condition. That makes this whole thread a moot point. Yes, I know the relationship between Harvey & Rachel was essential, I stated as much. Explicitly. And I've been filibustering against it. A good chunk of my argument has focussed on the importance of that relationship. Why are you reminding me of something I'm obviously aware of? I did't say the stake weren't high in The Matrix. I said they weren't as high as they were in the sequels and I also went on to say that the question you on why the "magnitude of the strength" effaces the cliche. Why are you analogising LOTR & GoGP? I'm using GoGP as an exemplar of just, specifically, uniquely, exclusive ONE retarded cliche. I'm not holding the entire movie as a parallel to TDK (and certainly not to Lord of the Rings). I clearly brought up LOTR to determine where MysticSpoon stands on fantasy vs reality. No-one has questioned its execution, nor would I (not the fist film anyway).

Crap, Flickchart just froze me out mid-comment. Something's missing.

**...and I also went on to question you on why the "magnitude of the strength" effaces the cliche. My point is that it doesn't, which is why I cite the sequels (which suck in that department). OK, laptop's gone nuts. I'll have finish my thoughts later.

^ In direct reference to "The Matrix works because the future of humanity rested on the shoulders of Neo and the gang."

I was about to continue on a pragmatic approach. Then, out of curiosity, I decided to see where Avengers falls on your chart. Rock bottom, right down there with Pretty Woman, Click and Speed 2. Seems like an ideological, emotional outburst, but who knows, maybe in some way that's an honest evaluation of how you see the movie. Probably not, but whatever. I think the pragmatic approach now is to leave you with that, because aeons of human existence have shown that reason rarely sways emotion. Oh, introduce yourself to SquareMaster; you and he should get on extremely well.

You insult me Cleckley. I'm not nearly as delusional as Squaremaster :D And yes, I hate The Avengers with a passion.


why is there so much passion in these comments? avengers is clearly a hollow entertainment - nothing more. the dark knight is smart, well crafted and awesome. its more entertaining than the silliness of the avengers as well. to put the avengers against TDK is a complete insult. the only remotely similar aspect of the two is there comic book origins. it really pisses me off how high people rate the avengers

I'm not particularly passionate, but I enjoy dissecting perspectives, for its own sake and because I think it can provide me with a bank of argument construction for future use. I enjoy discourse when it's fluid and I'm not having to reiterate myself. Some on this site have afforded me that pleasure. I like both films a helluva lot, but I'm not wearing blinders that help me claim The Avengers is deep or TDK is smart. Both are fluff and fluff is fine. The fact that it "really pisses you of Seb" would suggest that you are more passionate about either film than I could possibly be. It doesn't piss me off much, I just raise an eyebrow at the general consensus that TDK is some how elevated or high-brow. A lot of people 'punish' movies they dislike to an extra degree just because these films are heralded by the masses to a level higher than the individual can accept. I think that's dishonest because it implies you're evaluating fans and not the film. You're right Piccolo, you're not as delusional SquareMaster. No-one on this site is. He has 8000 movies on his chart and somehow his bottom 10 or 20 is littered with Marvel films. Also, based on probability alone, watching 8000 films and having a nothing but Nolan at the very top seems dubious. You'd think something in that myriad of films could break that Nolan stronghold, out of sheer chance. But even he hasn't positioned The Avengers at the very bottom. Again, maybe that's honestly how you feel. It's so 'silly' that it deserves to be the anchor of your list (odd considering your rating of the Mummy films, Disturbia and JC's stuff). Or maybe you'e just raging against its popularity in some very small way. Similarly, I think its interesting that you called some of the dialogue in Pulp Fiction "pointless". It's an interesting choice of adjective. I understand people saying its "bad" or "overtly quirky" or "hipsterish". "Pointless" is unusual because, well, Tarantino's dialogue IS the point, in and of itself. Dialogue can generally be banter, exposition or commentary (which is generally through one of the other two, or else it's just the director/writer talking through his characters). I can see why you, a man who adores Nolan and TDK, would dislike banter, when exposition is what you desire. There's nothing wrong or illegitimate about preferring one or the other, but this, added to what I said in my previous comment, renders this argument moot. Nolan holds the viewers hands, you like exposition. It's a perfect fit. So the SquareMaster thing, I thought, is an apt analogy. Perhaps that full explanation will help you see that I wasn't being out and out pejorative, just making an observation.

So now what you're saying is I'm WRONG for liking Nolan? At least Squaremaster doesn't question other users' opinions. I don't require an explanation dude.

Why are you bringing up my comments on the Inception vs Pulp Fiction debate here?

Also, I don't hate QT. See my top 10.

Where did I say you were wrong for liking Nolan? Nor did I say you hated QT. I was using you Pulp comment to make a specific point regarding your tastes and apply that to your polemic regarding TDK. I'm gonna assume that you're reading comprehension is fine and that you're just trolling.

How the fuck am I trolling dude?

Ah. If your last comments were serious then I now understand why this thread has brought forth no enlightenment. Thus concludes my interest in our rhetoric.

Suit yourself then. Doesn't make any difference to me.

The Avengers no question, more emotional, so much better action, and all around perfect film.

The Dark Knight. Batman vs The Joker will always beat The Avengers vs some aliens. But I will say that both are overrated. I've seen The Dark Knight 5 or 6 times and each time it gets worse for me. I still like it though. The Avengers just seemed to collect a bunch of superheroes I don't care about fighting villains I don't care about.

This shit isn't fun at all. Nothing but noise and explosions with dubstep bass. I guess I'm getting old.

Whoa, I already posted here. Freaks me out when that happens.

the avengers is better

The avengers was a little to comical but dark knight had a great story, I would choose Dark Knight

The Avengers is not way better they're about the same

The Dark Knight. Lol.

The dark knight for sure

Avengers is indeed the class of the genre and most sane people admit it. There's no shame in any film falling below Avengers greatness. That's just the way it is.

Anyone with any taste in film (or common sense in general) goes with The Dark Knight. When the next summer blockbuster comic event comes out, everyone will be comparing it and judging its merits to that of Nolan's masterpiece, just like every other comic book film for the last 4 1/2 years.

This summer and every summer for the next decade it will be a different Marvel film that sparks that jealousy. Always being in the back seat must suck.

With Man of Steel and Interstellar coming out over the next couple of years, Every other summer film will be looked at as an inferior quality product.

I really enjoyed Avengers. Way more than any Batman film to be honest.

Interstellar's going to be garbage. Absolute garbage. Mindless nonsense masquerading as art. Only thing that'll be worse is that Winter Soldier movie.

^Lolololo, Trainspotting-fanboy. Interstellar will without a doubt be another epic by Nolan filled with masterfully rich characters, an intriguing story, phenomenal acting and impressively deep themes. It will at least be better than anything Joss Wimbledon has ever made. On the other hand, Captain America: The Winter Soldier will be a movie with true heart and soul, and it WILL be better than Interstellar. All crazed Nolan fanboys are just afraid to admit that. It will be good, but not nearly as good as Daredevil or Fantasic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer. Classics.

^ it = Interstellar. Also, Avengers is crap and stuff. Seriously: worst movie ever. Who cares about entertainment, anyway.

^I think you just divided by zero.

Avengers is overrated. TDK wins.

@Squaremaster316 Well, at least you have a sense of humor, I guess?

^ Unrealistic Star Wars fanboy. Seeing how Nolan is the second-coming of Stanley Kubrick with critics everywhere comparing the flawless filmmaking in TDKR to ambitious epics like Lawrence of Arabia and The Godfather II, there really isn't any doubt that Nolan's next masterful project, Interstellar, will completely overshadow J.J. Assbram's amateurish Star Wars flick and Joss Sweden's sequel to the forgettable, The Avengers. Unfortunately, Interstellar won't be the first sci-fi marvel to surpass 2001: A Space Odyssey in depth and substance. Inception kinda already did that. Nolan's going to out-Kubrick Stanley yet again.

Stanley Rubix sucks though. You made one billion accounts on IMDb to vote all of Cutebrick's movie into the top 250. I don't have proof, but believe me people, this man is a scam! J.J. Abramps will make the best Star Wars movie since Attack of the Clones, which is easily better than all those other boring Star Wars movies. You're just jealous that Nolamp and Cuerick won't make a Star Wars movie! Instead, we'll get Interstellass. You're jealous! HA! KUBRICKNUT NOLANNUT WHO WANTS SOME NUTS. also the dark knight suckscksckscks.


Dark knight all the way. Not even a contest

the dark knight wins because the story is better the action is better at times and the villein is better.But the avengers is great.

I enjoyed The Avengers because it achieved what it set out to be, a great popcorn flick. But The Dark Knight is more complex.

The Dark Knight is the pinnacle of cinema and all of those that says it isn't are just lambs that are stupid and are the ones who shut down the lights at the Superbowl in hopes shutting down The Dark Knight for some reason it is seriously a great masterpiece that topples everything that Kubrick has done and even tops its own self in many many categories yes it is better than any director ever even Christopher Nolan and The Avengers is about dudes with beards and their awkward brothers and naked Mark Ruffalo and did I mention that it pales in comparison because it is seriously the worst movie ever made because it's not Christopher Nolan in fact every movie that is not Christopher Nolan sucks donkey balls because it just does that's why The Avengers sucks in comparison in every which way yeah because of naked Mark Ruffalo and stuff naked Mark Ruffalo doesn't make anything any better not even The Avengers and sorry that this is just one really long run on sentence but come on I'm a die hard Christopher Nolan fan who is in denial and won't admit that the movies done by Nolan are not the pinnacle of cinema but are just decent at best yes no I am not a fanboy that's in denial in fact everyone else is a Everything Else Fanboy that is in denial.

TDK is the pinnacle of delusional hype. Overrated in most ways. Avengers delivers everything and then a bit more just to make sure. Not a close call at all to be honest.

TDK: The only film to surpass the transcendent hype. So much better written, directed and performed than anything Whedon has ever had his name attached too.

Poopasaurus, stop being a delusion Everything Else Fanboy. Psh.

*delusional. The delusion is hitting me so bad that I spelled delusional wrong. So much delusion!

All hail the new KING! I’m not saying this to piss off the Nolan nation or egg on the Distinguished Competition but I'd have to rate Marvel’s Avengers a true 10/10 masterpiece and THE best comic book movie ever made. It is as close to a perfect movie as you can get regardless of the genre.

These Marvel fanboys creep me out. Not to defend Squaremaster ofcourse, but they all talk and do the same.

Act*, otherwise do the same thing(s)*

I think it's more of the same for the other side as well.

The first thing that should be noted about The Avengers is that it wears big boy pants. It smashes and dashes, smirks and winks, passes the time and yet MAKES YOU THINK. It’s a spectacle in the grandest sense of the word, a notable counterpoint to “gritty realism,” and a feather in director Joss Whedon’s cap. Downey Jr. makes us remember why his Iron Man character is so compelling, he’s huge comic relief throughout. Mark Ruffalo’s Hulk is a delight, he’s a man constantly on the edge of a delicious rage blackout. The main selling point of The Avengers. It’s very fun. Thematically, the film is brilliant but when gallows humor is employed against big action pieces it feels for a moment like the reason movies were invented. Festive escapism, laced with comedy, huge and blustery, and demanding to be taken to dinner. One-liners like “His brain is a bag full of cats” and “an intelligence organization that fears intelligence is not awesome” carry the day.And then there’s the action. Lord have mercy, there are scenes in The Avengers that flat out whistle. The strongest aspect of comic book action is, though it is (generally) encapsulated in a frame, it doesn’t need to conform to the physics of reality. So too, The Avengers movie, which fluidly blends CGI and ambition to output something not quite of this world. When the shot goes from The Hulk to Cap’ to Iron Man to Thor to Black Widow to Hawkeye … and back again, well you’ve convinced me that there are still a few angles out there that haven’t been beaten into the ground. Of those angles, the film uses them in a far more intimate manner than we’re used to with summer fare, to the film’s credit. And then there’s the action. Lord have mercy, there are scenes in The Avengers that flat out whistle. The strongest aspect of comic book action is, though it is (generally) encapsulated in a frame, it doesn’t need to conform to the physics of reality. So too, The Avengers movie, which fluidly blends CGI and ambition to output something not quite of this world. When the shot goes from The Hulk to Cap’ to Iron Man to Thor to Black Widow to Hawkeye … and back again, well you’ve convinced me that there are still a few angles out there that haven’t been beaten into the ground. Of those angles, the film uses them in a far more intimate manner than we’re used to with summer fare, to the film’s credit.

When I saw the Avengers all I could think about was how it instantly stacks up to the all-time great films in its category. What I said about now classics like Iron Man, Spider-Man 2, X2, X-Men First Class and even Captain America is still all true but Avengers tops them. I can say that without hesitation. Just like those great films of the genre, Avengers delivers a wide range of emotions. Yet, it keeps the intensity on overdrive all the way through the film. I’m not talking constant mindless action, I’m talking intense depth and pathos that adds to the action. The complexity, depth, heart, emotion and action are off the charts here. I honestly know that it’s literally impossible for us to see a better movie this summer and, for that matter the rest of the year. I know that this buzz will piss off fans of other upcoming films and I really don’t care at this point. I’m looking forward to a few of those myself but I know now that they all will fall short of what I just saw from Avengers. If this causes a backlash and false hate against Avengers then so be it. I totally agree with most of the film critics who are raving about it. Fun was expected but the complexities of the movie couldn’t have been expected to this degree. The evolution and growth of the characters adds so much weight to the wildly fun stuff they serve up. The main cast just absolutely shines as we all knew that they could given the right material. I loved the supporting cast a lot as well. I was stunned at how good this movie turned out and I had quite high expectations. How many hyped films in recent memory have lived up to and then surpassed that hype? This one is in rare company.

"So after Hollywood's spent the better part of a summer — and something like half a billion dollars — trying to find a new formula for the superhero flick, it turns out that jests (Iron-Man), alcohol (Hancock) and even a full reboot (The Incredible Hulk) aren't really the way to go. Just make an idea central, and the rest pretty quickly falls into place. That, at least, seems like a reasonable conclusion to draw from The Dark Knight, an explosively provocative Batman installment in which exhilaratingly straightforward action sequences are matched by moral complexity of a sort not usually associated with comic-book movie franchises. " Brilliantly stated, Bob.

Aveners is superb. All too infrequently, a much hyped blockbuster hits the mark right on the spot. Then there’s the rare beauty that hits ABOVE the mark. The Avengers is such a movie. It EXCEEDS the already high expectations. It’s the best big budget movie that I’ve seen in years. It honestly may be my favorite of all-time. It hits a high standard of excellence by combining a cool plot, breathtaking action sequences, charisma, crisp and witty dialogue, the perfect villain, actual character development and puts it all together in one amazing package. For those few out there that didn’t have high expectations, this movie will surprise you with its heart while sacrificing none of the fun. The inner turmoil within each character as well as the outer friction between such diverse individuals worked exceptionally well. We really can relate to each character and why he or she feels and acts the way that they do. Rest assured that The Avengers does delivers on every level and does so with great emotional moments. It’s a movie that lives up to all the hype it has generated and will continue to generate now that people are seeing it and falling in love with it completely.

Avengers is so very easily the new king of the genre. Most are saying that with conviction. Beating the Loki's of the world with misplaced conviction. Everything has converged perfectly, delivering what is now the new king of the genre. The Avengers is certainly the best overall comic adaptation film ever made. Really, how could it not be? They positioned this thing with FIVE other set up films that were each remarkable in their own right. Not only does it all come together but I’m happy to say this amazing cast delivers in every way. Believe it or not, every single character featured previously in those five films gets time to really shine at one point or another in this astounding movie. Even though the set up has been epic, the result was anything but assured. It would have been easy to be overwhelmed by the task of putting all these great character together and making it click but they pulled it off perfectly. Maybe it’s because the characters themselves are complex and intriguing and that they have been brought to three dimensional life by people that really care. Whatever the case, EVERYONE hits a home run here. They fleshed out perfect cohesion while remembering to include the fun and humor that have made those other five films good. If you define those films as good then you’ll define Avengers as great. It’s a unified step up and I didn’t think that possible. What’s also amazing is that I think this movie works without having seen any of those other films. Then, the fun factor will be enjoyed by those that didn’t care about the other movies. The depth and amazement will come from those that have invested in to this universe. What they’ve done is transcend any other of this genre’s films by going deeper and doing so in spectacular fashion with Oscar caliber performances. Again, easily the new king of the genre.

No long wind necessary. Avengers is the best superhero movie ever made. Period.

Best ever true but the main problem with Avengers is that it sets the bar TOO high. It's simply a phenomenal movie. This has fans of other film franchise working themselves up in to a lather. It also has producers soiling themselves because they know their movies slated to be released later this year will seem less by comparison to Avengers. It's like setting off the grand finale at a fireworks show first. Every pop and explosion after that will seem like a giant "meh."

Could you guys please, PLEASE stop being obnoxious?

I tried to stay on my side of the fence and let everyone enjoy what they enjoy but that Squarepants yokel just won't let it rest. He and his nolan worship thinks they run this site. It's time to annoy the annoyer.

I tried to be peaceful, but when the ones who bully this site like Yellowspine, Poop, CAPT, Avenger7 and the other sock puppet idiots start things up, the fucking hounds get unleashed. The Dark Knight is the greatest CBM in the history of the genre, and a ton of people agree. They don't agree, that's fine, but, of course, they start putting up the "Universally accepted in favor of Marvel" flamebait horseshit.

Jesus Christ. How old are you guys?

The Avengers is an intelligent movie that actually works way above the level set up by previous comic adaptations. To this movie’s credit, they never assumed that the advertising or hype or even the look alone was good enough to put butts in the seats. Without question, the makers of this movie went all the way in making it a satisfying experience for not just the fans but for the uninitiated as well. They obviously respect their own source material but they’ve accentuated the believable and realistic angles of these wild concepts. This is a story about great characters and remarkable heroes. The action stemming from that is more than amazing. I can’t tell you how much I enjoyed this movie and how refreshing it was to see something with a guaranteed payday try and succeed at being great. They assumed nothing and delivered true greatness. KUDOS!

Christopher Nolan's second bundle of joy "The Dark Knight" EXCEEDED all of my expectations!!! With the success of 2005's reboot of the Batman franchise, they took what was already established and expanded it, amped it up, and gave a deeper, darker and brooding story that is more gripping and the suspense is likely to catch you of guard several times throughout. Christian Bale delves more deeper into Batman, sworn to fight evil and injustice, though also quite reluctant and uncertain if his crusade can ever end and cleanse his inner turmoil from his fractured soul due to the murder of his beloved parents. But with the help of his trusted butler/ally Alfred (played superbly by Michael Cane) grounds him, gives him moral support, and keeps him in check. But the real star of the show is Heath Ledger as Batman's most deadly enemy, The Joker. I can HONESTLY tell you that: as good as Jack Nicholson was in Batman'89 he is CHILD'S PLAY compared to this Joker. He is sadistic, psychotic, and downright SCARIER and PSYCHOLOGICALLY disturbing than the previous incarnation of The Clown Prince of Crime and Ledger gives it his all to do him justice. Along with the original cast comes some fresh faces such as Aaron Eckhart, Maggie Gyllenhaal and more. I must say though I liked Katie Holmes, Gyllenhaal gives a much better performance and is a far cry from the "damsel-in-distress" stereotype that's common in films. Bale and Gyllenhall have even better chemistry this time around more so than Holmes. Even better, the fight sequences are improved and feature more brutal and bone crushing combat than "Begins" in addition to new technology at Batman's disposal. Also worth mentioning is co-screenwriter Jonathan Nolan, who gives the film an added frosting to an already delicious cake. Simply put, The Dark Knight is totally more bad ass than "Begins." The action is great, and the plot is more deeper and engrossing. I applaud Christopher Nolan, Christian Bale, and especially Heath Ledger (who sadly passed away earlier this year) and all those aboard for believing in Mr. Nolan's talents for this second installment.

Quoting a random person from IMDb...nice. What's the point?

Marvel’s Avengers is everything a movie should be, and more. It goes without saying that it’s the best film of the year to date. There's a serious subtext to the story and great characterization throughout but its focus is on the amazing. As an adventure film, it really has no parallel. When a movie reinvents a popular genre, it speaks volumes. This movie does just that and accomplishes what they’ve promised us since the first Iron Man movie… giving us that “bigger universe” in all its glory. The movie gets just about everything right but maybe its number one strength is the casting coupled with the writing. Meaning that every character has the perfect dialogue and every quality actor inhabits the hero they portray perfectly. Downey has Stark down cold but we knew that already. He’s just given the right stage to shine here. Evans finds his pathos and his chops in this film as Steve Rogers. The Boy Scout all-American has an edge this time around. Hemsworth’s Thor has understandable rationale for joining and doing what he does throughout the movie. His inner turmoil and guilt is exquisite. Tom Hiddleston certainly has the acting chops to hang with any movie villain EVER and he’s perfect because this is no one dimensional character and his motivation and progression since the Thor film is seen and felt. Samuel L Jackson actually has something to do in this movie… PRAISE BE! Jeremy Renner is a nice addition and even with all the big guns chewing up every scene, he shines. Movie goers will want to see more of his character in the future guaranteed. Scarlett Johansson adds to the casting perfection. She's every bit the complex yet sexy female lead and a match for any male on screen. Would you expect any less from a Joss Whedon film? The interaction, conflict/turmoil and the relationships all work well and is definitely one of the highlights of the entire movie itself. Add some of the best kick-butt action sequences that I’ve ever seen and Avengers is what other movies will be measured to in the years that follow.

To say it's the deepest mainstream comic adaptation ever produced would be akin to calling the Nolan/Ledger Joker 'a bit eccentric'. While watching it, I found myself thinking it was very long, which is usually a sign that it's TOO long, and therefore boring. But that's not actually the case here. The script is bulging with ideas, philosophical musings, THEMES, which Christopher Nolan is not content to gloss over in favour of cool set-pieces (as many comic adaptations are), but wants to explore, wants to allow the characters to explore, at a logical pace. So, what I guess I'm saying is, considering what it sets out to do, the movie is long ENOUGH, while still constantly holding the viewer's interest. And that's not to say the thematic exploration comes at the EXPENSE of big action, either. On the contrary, there is some truly awesome stuff going on here. The chase with the truck, for example, is fantastic, and there's some great hand-to-hand stuff too. But what engages us most is the characters, and, while the script is brilliant (the dialogue is sharp, and quite funny for the first two-thirds, before the drama really kicks in), this mainly comes down to the cast. Christian Bale. Taller than Michael Keaton was. More menacing than Val Kilmer was. Less like Adam West than George Clooney was. Solid and committed as always. He gives the character LIFE, and actually makes us feel for him. The word 'tortured' keeps coming to mind...and I suppose it's pretty appropriate. It seems a bit blasphemous to compare Jack Nicholson to Cesar Romero, but after seeing Heath at work...Jack (who once seemed so awesome) just looks...well...lame. If you've seen it, you hopefully get what I mean. If you haven' need to. You will discover the true definition of commitment. Maggie Gyllenhaal. I didn't have any problem with Katie in the first one (at the time), but I doubt she could have pulled off the more emotional stuff Rachel goes through here. Seeing recasting was necessary (does Tom have a problem with his wife being involved with Batman? Too many bad memories perhaps? Why am I even talking about such garbage here?) they could have done a butt-load worse than Maggie. She rocks. As does Aaron Eckhart. But I'm not giving ANYTHING away. Suffice it to say my mind was blown...AGAIN. Makes Tommy Lee Jones look get the idea. Michael Caine. Still one of my favourite actors. Alfred is the shiz. Morgan Freeman. Morgan Freeman. AOK. Gary Oldman. As in BB, no mania. No psychosis. No nervous tics. Absolute subtlety. Manages to hold his own alongside Christian, Heath and Aaron without resorting to parlor tricks. Sign of spectacular talent. Go Gaz. Eric Roberts! William Fichtner! Michael Jai White! Tiny Lister! The whole thing is just a big bag of thoughtful, well-executed entertainment. It's equal parts cerebral and visceral. Ideas and action.

Quoting YOURSELF and more random quotes from IMDb. Either I'm back at kindergarten, or this is one eleborate trollfest.

How great is Avengers? I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, this time louder! Marvel owns the cinema for a reason. Critics rave and the box office buzzes because their films are superior to anything else on the market. Avengers proves this ten times over. Rich yet fun characters will always win the day. However, that does seem to hack off fans of the competition. Jealousy and flat out stupidity aside, Marvel saved last summer by giving us two self made high quality films and collaborating with Fox to give us another. This year, they start off summer with shear perfection and the best movie this century has seen to date. Try to deny it, but it’s simply the truth.

Although seriously, STOP.

Not many more "comments" to go and Avengers VS TDK takes its place at the bottom on the film's main page as the most popular discussion. Every time someone clicks on it, they'll see a comment about Avengers. How delightfully fitting that will be. Avengers is the consensus number one film of the genre. Might as well note it on both their movie pages.

Just. Stop. Both of you. Alright?

And who's forcing you to read this stuff?

Marveltards remarkable insecurity with Nolan's genius aside. Nolan thoroughly dominates cinema, both in and outside of the genre, producing one influential masterpiece after the other while using none of the cheap tactics and gimmicks others use, such as 3D and crossovers. Always giving us fascinating characters with remarkable stories with brilliant plot twists executed with remarkable subtlety. Generic fare such as Avengers and Serenity simply fail to bring the same level of perfection.

Look I love The Avengers, but this is really no contest. The Dark Knight is better in every department.

"The Cursed Nolan Batman Franchise Makes Money Off Tragedy" =====> I find it sad and shameful that Batman and Nolan fans are encouraged by the fact that the movies that they love keep benefiting from horrible tragedy and they're proud of that fact. There has never been any question that TDK made tremendous money off the unfortunate death of Heath Ledger. The curiosity surrounding his work packed theatres back in 2008. In 2012, TDKR has made better box office than it would have otherwise because of the even more unfortunate events surrounding that Colorado shooting. Anyone saying otherwise is using the tragedy as cover for dim reaction to an average movie. Whatever opening weekend box office hiccups the shooting generated (like dollar amounts should even matter when faced with such heartache) was more than offset by the constant media coverage and free publicity the movie garnered. For weeks now every entertainment publication that has interviewed movie goers has noted people saying "I wasn't interested in Batman but I had to see this movie to support the victims and to prove that terror can't win." (Or something very similar) Add the people that want to see what inspired such chaos and such insane action and it's clear TDKR has made MORE money than it would have otherwise. Forget the rabid fanbase, word of mouth for TDKR itself was very poor. It's just not a very good movie and more and more people are stating that but aren't saying it forcefully out of respect for the tragedy. The last two films benefiting from tragedy is shameful.

Look, Yellowjacket, I hope you do know that you and Squaremaster make yourselves look like complete idiots. Quoting other people, bashing Nolan / Marvel fans for no good reason, redundant's all just hollow and pointless. What's the point? What are you guys trying to prove? How old are you guys again? Mature. Both of you. This isn't fanboywarchart.

The theme to this film (which is a continuation in the series and in theme from Batman Begins) is that good versus evil is not only an external fight between a "good" guy and a "bad" guy, but also is a constant battle that rages inside each and every one of us. Christian Bale, as Bruce Wayne, is forced to make a great deal of judgment calls based upon the circumstances being piled against him by The Joker, played by Heath Ledger. Unfortunately, some of the choices and actions he performs cause him to become alienated from his closest friends, and ultimately the city in its entirety. But in doing so, he solidifies himself as the classic tragic hero that the city loves and hates in equal measure. Throughout the film, Harvey Dent (played by Aaron Eckhart) undergoes a dramatic transformation through giving in to this darker side. He begins as what the people of Gotham City refer to as the "White Knight", due to his relentless pursuit of justice and for being a seemingly incorruptible source of good. As he is brought low by the machinations of The Joker, Bruce is forced to sacrifice his own appearance of "good" to prevent Dent's fall from grace from completely disheartening the already injured psyche of Gotham City. In keeping with the tradition of Batman Begins, this film goes above and beyond anything I expected or hoped for. Bale, Ledger, and Eckhart form an engrossing triangle that keeps you at the edge of your seat throughout. With equal parts action and suspense, you're never left complacent. The characters are so "real" that you find yourself getting sucked into their world almost immediately. Bale continues to make Bruce Wayne a believable, albeit moody, hero forced into making decisions that I wouldn't wish upon even my worst enemy. With a villain like the Joker, many (myself included) were worried about whether he would be convincing as a source of evil as opposed to a quirky "joke" of a nemesis as has been too frequently betrayed in the past through the Batman franchise (just watch Jim Carrey as "The Riddler" in Batman & Robin). Ledger gave a mind-blowing performance with equal parts cruelty, humor, and crazy. He created a persona so creepy yet brilliant, you're almost always left in awe when he is on the screen. All in all, a fantastic sequel that left the audience veritably foaming at the mouth for the next installment, which did not disappoint and gave a fitting cap to the best trilogy of superhero films ever made, making every bit of critical and financial success attributed to the remarkable director, writers and cast, creating a universally beloved chapter of CBM's

Avengers is indeed the best ever. If you are a Marvel fan, then “The Avengers” will feel like Christmas. Thanks to the merry doings of the director, Joss Whedon, all your favorite characters are here, as shiny and as tempting as presents under the tree. You get Tony Stark, better known as Iron Man (Robert Downey, Jr.); Steve Rogers, or Captain America (Chris Evans); Natasha Romanoff, or Black Widow (Scarlett Johansson); Bruce Banner, or the Hulk (Mark Ruffalo); and Thor (Chris Hemsworth), whose real name is Thor. None of the weirdos from “X-Men” make the grade, nor do half-pints like Ghost Rider or the Silver Surfer. There were ripples of anticipation - and some anxiety - when Marvel Enterprises announced that Joss Whedon would direct "Marvel's The Avengers," the comic-book-movie to end all comic-book-movies, featuring Iron Man, Captain America, the Hulk, Black Widow, Hawkeye and (did I miss anyone?), oh yes, Thor. Whedon is known for his cerebral humor, on display in his TV series "Buffy, the Vampire Slayer" and most recently in the Web series "Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog" and the slasher send-up "Cabin in the Woods." He also has an unrepentant sentimental streak, evidenced by his work on the first "Toy Story" movie. When it came to Whedon having his way with the rabidly beloved Marvel franchise, fan-boys wondered (to borrow a phrase from the movie itself): What's his play? Those faithful acolytes can breathe easy: "The Avengers" has been executed with all the reverence the super-fans demand, as well as the winking, self-referential humor that has made it palatable for filmgoers disinclined to take a bunch of grown men dressed in spangles and spandex so very seriously. Whedon has adapted Stan Lee's masterwork with skill and economy (if you can believe that given the film's nearly 21 / 2-hour running time), if not with a surfeit of style. Most crucially, he's enlisted terrific actors - some of them reprising already beloved roles, a few earning their bones with scene-stealing performances - who function both as individual stars and a cohesive team. That balancing act is precisely what's called for in "The Avengers," which pivots largely on the tensions between super-heroes accustomed to being singular, now forced to work in harness with one another's often ungovernable strengths - and egos. When Robert Downey Jr. first played Tony Stark in "Iron Man," he brought a bracing dose of sophistication and flippant humor to what could have been a turgid exercise in overseriousness. In "Iron Man 2," he took the cockiness and entitlement of his character to a new, not altogether welcome, level of glib self-regard. In "The Avengers," he dials the swagger back to where viewers first fell for Stark, the smart-but-silly playboy whose superpower may reside in a distinctive metal sheath but also lies in his ability to puncture even the most cherished pieties. That impudence doesn't sit well with Steve Rogers, a.k.a. Captain America, whom Chris Evans introduced last year as a refreshingly clean-cut avatar of retro wholesomeness and rock-ribbed values. Befuddled by Stark's snark - not to mention references to Stephen Hawking and assorted 21st-century ephemera - he now looks more like a moralizing prig. The competitive psycho-dynamics between Stark and Rogers play out after they're assembled by Nick Fury (Samuel L. Jackson) and the peacekeeping agency S.H.I.E.L.D., when an interplanetary interloper named Loki (Tom Hiddleston) arrives on Earth and wreaks chaotic havoc in keeping with his name. If Stark doesn't immediately bond with the straight-laced Captain America, he finds a more easy alliance with the brainy Bruce Banner (Mark Ruffalo), the mellow, modest genius scientist who, to avoid getting angry and turning into what Stark calls an "enormous green rage monster," has been living in Calcutta and tending to the sick. From Eric Bana to Edward Norton, the role of the Hulk has proved problematic over the years - often nicely played, but not always in good movies. In "The Avengers," Ruffalo makes not just Banner's nerdy glasses but the dirigible-size green suit his own, effectively defining not just the film's heart but the hyperbolic action that dominates its concussive climax. The performances are so well-pitched in "The Avengers," meshing with such vividness and ease, that it's tempting to overpraise the good but not great movie that surrounds them. Probably wisely, Whedon seems to have tamped down his instincts to play up irony and camp. Instead, he focuses on simply making the characters legible and the story easy to follow from the Imax theater cheap seats - all the while interjecting witty lines and bits of business, from Stark's quippy asides to the literal punch lines Hulk delivers with a wordless grunt. By tacking so close to audience expectations, Whedon has made a movie that's more efficient than inspired, one that propels the series along and hits the necessary beats, without breaking any substantive or stylistic ground. ("The Avengers" was converted to 3-D in post-production which, as in the case of "Titanic," does nothing to add or subtract from the experience.) Then again, breaking ground is precisely the last thing fans want from movies that at their best play like elaborate pop-up versions of their source material, with enough psychological complexity to keep things interesting. In this case, that extra interior layer has to do with reconciling with one's own shadow material, even at its most frightening and destructive. Laying waste to midtown Manhattan while tickling the dark side of his dualistic protagonists, Whedon has positioned "The Avengers" exactly where it needs to be in order to keep spinning out in perpetuity. Bidding good-bye to at least one beloved character and saying hello to another in a tantalizing closing-credits hint, he leaves us wanting more - which, for now at least, is undoubtedly the right play. Marvel's Avengers is the best film the genre has ever produced.

Alright, more pointless quoting. I give up.

I’m glad to see the response to Marvel’s The Avengers (Damn that Uma Thurman movie for making me have to print the full title) has been VERY VERY positive. If there was ever a case for expectations being unreasonable then this was it. Also, we always get some anal fans that are too attached to their comic book preconceived notions. Either Avengers stayed very close to its root origins or people are judging it as the fine film it turned out to be. It’s both to be honest and it seems most enjoyed it as much as I did.

Even after that frenzy, Avengers is so much better that it's STILL not a close call.

What can I say, is Avengers the best superhero movie ever? HECK YES! Normally I’d hedge that question and say “one of the best” but there really is no hesitation or doubt at this point. It IS the best ever no debate. Avengers is a true event movie.

With a superior cast, better acting, a more memorable villain, and a far more gripping climax, The Dark Knight easily holds firm on its title as best superhero film ever made.

Best discussion on Flickchart by some distance!!!

Does The Avengers deliver? Well, let’s see what is has to offer. It delivers tremendous characters, impressive visuals, outstanding story, a perfect amount of humor, emotional resonance and prodigious acting. What else is there? If someone doesn't like this film, I can’t understand why. I can't wait to see Avengers 2 with other Avengers in place. Seriously, I hate looking ahead so fast because this movie should be savored but it is so fun to think about where they go from here that it’s hard not to dream. What a franchise! Best ever on every level.

Yes. We get it. Shush. Grow up.

"Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." -John Wayne


Who said anything about a conversation? Just making statements that the depth of Avengers really did surprise me. Even though the high quality of the actors involved and there previous work as these very same characters seemed to indicate otherwise, I was expecting a wild popcorn movie. I was wrong in thinking it was too much to convey in one film. I couldn’t be more pleased because they balanced everything masterfully. Sure, there’s the popcorn fun we were all expecting but there’s also a definite soul to the film and a smart plot as well. Avengers is truly a stupendous movie regardless of genre.

Indeed, this isn't a conversation. This is a "who-can-shout-the-loudest"-contest.

^and it's pathetic. You look like complete idiots to others, I hope you two realise that. And if this IS a trollfest, news flash: it ain't funny.

The Avengers does deliver on every level and does so with great emotional moments. As to this page, sometimes there's collateral damage when a terror agent is targeted. Squarenolan is indeed a site terrorist. If something annoys him then so be it. Simply click elsewhere.

Avengers was so good and is all about the future. It's open ended and we will be getting Avenger films for the rest of our lifetime and beyond. Every single year for the next forty years at the least we will see something Marvel/Avengers related. Isn't that great to know and doesn't that fact bring comfort on even the coldest of winter days? What else can make a person smile more then that realization?

Got any opinions on movies that aren't marvel or dc?

Is this Flickchart, or the IMDB discussion boards?

Nah, this discussion is way too sophisticated to be anything like IMDB.

Inbe4 Squaremaster totally not acknowledging anything and saying how great Nolan is and how shitty Marvel / Joss Whedon is and Inbe4 Yellowjacket not acknowledging anything and saying how great Marvel is and how dumb and delusional Nolan fans are and inbe4 Squaremaster copying quotes from random people on IMDb / himself praising The Dark Knight and inbe4 Yellowjacket copying quotes from random people on IMDb / himself praising The Avengers and inbe4 Squaremaster not realising that he spends every single minute on the internet complaining about The Avengers and Marvel in general *for some reason, they probably killed kittens*. And inbe4 me making another comment about these two clowns. Repeat. Repeat.

This discussion is way too ignorant to be anything like a discussion at all.

The staff should make a new section on this site, I guess.

And call it 'Stupidchart'.


That also works.

It's easy to see why Avengers is so loved. Anyone doubting this cast going in obviously didn't see the lead up films. They are ALL perfect in their roles and it all came together impressively in Avengers. Given the growth and circumstances following their origin films both Hemsworth and Evans had more depth to work with and draw upon. Whedon putting the words in their mouths certainly didn’t hurt either. The man is a master. Thor being more humble and knowing his brother is the problem and Cap being the man out of time played remarkably well. Downey didn’t miss a beat as Stark. I loved the scenes between Scarlett and Renner. That grounded the film and the audience got to breath and see the film through their eyes for a bit. The story and relationships are as epic as the action and that action is as good as I’ve ever seen.

*Yellowtroll. It's pretty obvious.

*A big fan, it's more than obvious. Out of 5000 debates on this site, what do you care?

Because you made yourself look like an idiot and a douchebag, that's why. 5 billion comments isn't enough for you? Ever heard of the word "redundancy"?

You're the type of fan that waves around his most favorite thing like it's his dick. You're basically saying "Hey, look at my dick. There's really no need to swing it around, but I'm going to do it anyways. EVERYBODY, PLEASE LOOK AT MY DICK." In fact, that's how you and the Master of Squares both are. It would be fine if you guys didn't defend your movies like you had to defend yourself if your dick was going to be cut off in some menacing form of torture. Just agree to disagree.

^ "Nolantards just don't want to admit that their dick is smaller. Look at my dick! Pretty much everyone agrees that it is big. Look at it!"

What I don't understand is that if a person thinks this is a "look at my dick" moment why do they KEEP COMING BACK TO LOOK AT IT???

Because you keep throwing it in front of us; our view is blocked.

Thomas Huxley said “Logical consequences are the scarecrows of fools and the beacons of wise men.” In other words, don't poke the sleeping bear.

Then stop egging on the poker.

I think the big question...or the question everyone actually cares about is this: Is Christopher Nolan's follow up to the critically acclaimed 2005 film "Batman Begins," The Dark Knight, as good as everyone is saying? Quite simply, yes, yes it is. There is no doubt about it, one of the greatest movies of the 21st century duly deserves every amount of praise lavished onto it. This is no ordinary superhero movie, this is a character and dialogue driven piece, not as action orientated as you might expect. A basic one sentence summary is: Batman now has to face his most cunning and psychotic enemy, someone with no real motives...The Joker. Now that that is out of the way, I will start off with the actors (and boy, is there a lot to talk about). Christian Bale has done a tremendous job as our beloved Caped Crusader, with him already blowing everyone else out of water with "Batman Begins." Bruce Wayne has a flawed personality that hangs on the balance between righteousness and criminal. His perception of justice causes an emotional and personal shift, whether he is a wealthy businessman who fights crime in a gadget-riddled suit or just a normal man who is sick of all the scum in Gotham City and decides to give the law-breakers a dose of their own medicine. Because of this, and Bale's tremendous acting, Bruce Wayne is justified, and we emphasis with Bale's flawed hero more than any of the other actors. If there ever was an excellent Batman, this is it. The theme of right and wrong is played well with his character here. Of course, I am sure you all want know if Heath Ledger was that good. And I can safely say that he most definitely was. Ledger's Joker is not only the best, but is now the greatest superhero film villain ever. His performance is truly terrifying, chilling, brilliant; any synonyms of the previous adjectives. Every scene he is in is stolen. The Joker truly is Batman's worst villain; cunning and psychotic, nothing quite matches his laugh and sinister makeup. If Ledger nabs the Oscar for Best Actor, I honestly will not be surprised. It is a true tragedy to see such a talented actor fall at such a young age... All the other actors cannot be forgotten, though. Aaron Eckhart has definitely proved himself previously ("Thank you for Smoking") as someone to watch out for. Here, as Harvey Dent (and later Two Face) he is very powerful. All he wants is justice; to bring down every single criminal. Eckhart is the definitive Two Face. Maggie Gyllenhaal as Wayne and Dent's love interest, Rachel Dawes is much better than Katie Holmes. Gyllenhaal's performance has substance, I really cared for her and her future and she was terrific in every scene. Michael Caine can do no wrong, and as Alfred Pennyworth he provides some comical and emotional scenes. Morgan Freeman as Lucius Fox, although a limited role, does inject some sly humour and much needed morals into the story. Finally, Gary Oldman's Lt. James Gordon is riveting. He at least needs a Best Supporting Actor nomination for his performance as another crime-fighting hero who faces some challenging situations. Wally Pfister's cinematography is simply stunning. Gotham has never looked so good, so big and deep. His wide shots purvey a dirty aura and contribute to the feel of the film. Without it, it may not have been the same. Another Oscar worthy portion, THE MUSIC! With Hans Zimmer AND James Newton Howard at the helm, how could it go wrong? The score sets the mood in every scene, giving an epic and thrilling tone. During the action sequences it really ups the adrenaline. And on the topic of action, The Dark Knight succeeds in having the best fight sequences and car chases in a comic book adaptation yet. With no obvious or over-use of CGI, the explosions and accidents are the real deal. Thrilling, edge of your seat and violent, this is brutally awesome stuff. Nevertheless, none of this would be possible without Christopher Nolan, the man behind it all. Pairing up with the writer (and brother) Jonathon Nolan, the darkest Batman movie yet is the best, and the best so far this year. This does not feel like a comic book film, the dialogue and situations feel so realistic. And, it IS the script that drives this film. The dialogue is very, very well written and is the center of the conflict and the movie. It may be bold to say this, but this is the best superhero film of all time. There are others that are magnificent ("Superman" and "X-Men" are two examples) but this is the most complex, the most dark and the most spectacular and epic of them all. See it for Bale, for Ledger, for the music, the action and for Nolan's flawless direction.

Also, nice quote. Written 5 years ago, BEFORE THE OSCARS OF 2008.


lol. You're not kidding, MS. That block of text is on three different sites!

"If Ledger nabs the Oscar for Best Actor, I honestly will not be surprised." Holy fucking shit. Squaremaster is a goddamn time traveler. Even Batman can dream of being in the big leagues one day!

Using a baseball analogy, Marvel is the Major Leagues and DC is the Minor Leagues. (Too bad Batman can't get the call up, he's almost major league talent) Marvel's heroes and stories are simply more complex and deliver more depth and that's been the case for quite a while now.

Which brings me to my next question: how does it feel to be a genius? Pepper Potts: Well, ha, I really wouldn't know now, would I? Tony Stark: What do you mean? All this came from you

*Smashes head against a wall*

Marvel’s Avengers is pure fun, a perfect mix new age dazzle and good old-fashioned charisma. Marvel-ous! It is the best movie that I’ve seen in years. It’s amazing to see it with a rockin’ crowd in a packed cinema! I know many movies claim to have something for everyone but this one manages to pull it off while remaining interesting and compelling all the way through. There are spectacular action scenes as well as heartfelt, intense moments. There is humor and fun but it’s a serious, well made film. It’s everything a movie like this should be and more.

One can find the meaning of life in The Avengers. Let me list the ways....... 1) There's one God and he doesn't dress like either Loki or Thor.

Everyone from critics to general audiences loved Avengers. The Avengers delivers on every front.

2) BELIEVE in heroes. It's how you win the day.

The only word I can think of to describe The Avengers is AWESOME. It’s amazing work and everything I had hoped for and more. It’s exceptional entertainment for the uninitiated but it has everything a fanboy could want to be sure. It has every little nuance of what a fanboy wants to see. One of the MANY things I loved was the tension and flat out conflict that arises between team members. It’s not a two dimensional "team wonderful that bands together to fight crime ho ho ho." Most don’t like each other at fist and there is so much texture to be played. That is great because so many of these characters are larger than life. The have egos and the big guns aren’t used to working with other people or even playing by the rules. Stark, Thor and Banner all work "the other side of the fence" so to speak. Then there’s the Widow, Hawkeye and Captain America who are used to following orders and playing within a command structure. They are all thrown together in a wonderful and, best of all, believable fashion. Again, more than I ever dreamed possible.

3) A good secret to have in life is to always be angry. Then, let it out on those that deserve it just like Bruce.

The entire cast of Avengers really delivered. You needed more than just action actors or stunt doubles to play all these parts. The pathos is there but so are the timing and true deep performances. Look, I was missing Ed Norton as much as anyone on that hype train I talked about but I’m so happy to say that Mark Ruffalo won me over. I hope he’s locked up for the long haul because we don’t need any more changes. Three was the lucky number for movie Banners. Every other actor in Avnegers that we’ve seen before is BETTER than their previous incarnation (EVERY single one) with the possible exception of RDJ as Stark. He’s great but it’s hard to top his take on the character from the original Iron Man in an ensemble movie. I also have to fully disclose that I’m insanely attracted to Scarlett Johansson. I thought her Widow character was amazing but I’m definitely judging that through rose colored glasses. The character arcs that run there course during this film will surprise a lot of general audiences expecting nothing more than a Transformers type popcorn scarfdown.

4) It's really not that complicated. If you've got red in your ledger, wipe it out.

5) An ant has no quarrel with a boot. Don't be an ant. (Unless your name is Hank Pym)

Avengers as a movie and as a team on screen is an unstoppable force. It is one film that needs every scene to be savored.

6) It's the unspoken truth of humanity that we crave subjugation. The bright lure of freedom diminishes our life's joy in a mad scramble for power. For identity. We were made to be ruled.

7) Recognize those people in authority's decision (EX: a council, your boss, etc) but given that it's a stupid-ass decision, elected to ignore it.

8) Actively try to avoid a potential global catastrophe.

You guys are sounding like the Westboro Baptist Church.

9) Never lack conviction or you will lose!

10) Being a genius, billionaire, playboy, philanthropist is a great way to go through life.

Also, if you are on a potential threat watch list find out if you are above or below angry bees.

"Never lack conviction or you will lose" Something that Loki has in common with nolantards! I wonder if someone has spit blueberryicedcoffee at their screen yet?

How old are you guys? I want some perspective here. I'm 19.

I was never this delusional at the age of 12...

In keeping with Marvel’s best efforts, Joss Whedon sets Avengers apart from every other standard adventure movie, by the way he communicates the overall experience. We live the story and we feel the intensity and gravity of every situation. He primarily uses the character of Steve Rogers and we fully embrace the character as we go along with him on this amazing ride. It’s so wonderful that we got to know each of the major players in their own solo movie(s) before this adventure. That just adds a ton to the depth. This movie isn’t about comic book pulp or things that go “boom” but about a powerful, exciting and meaningful story. The elements are fantastical but perfectly balanced by the characters and the way Whedon grounds everything. Visual and emotional imagery are presented throughout the movie and provides the viewer with greater insight into the heroes AND even the villain.

Are you all really that naive? S.H.I.E.L.D monitors potential threats. - Bruce Banner: Captain America is on potential threat watch list? - Tony Stark: [to rogers] You're on that list? Are you above or below angry bees? - Steve Rogers: I swear to God, Stark, one more crack... Tony Stark: Threatening! I feel threatened!

How. Old. Are. You? Is it really that hard? What's with the bullshit quoting anyway? Are you guys too lazy to formulate anything new (or remotely thoughtful for that matter) so you just copy other people's opinions and post them here? What's the point? Does it prove anything? Why am I still questioning these things? Answers, Marvel fanboys, answers. Not other people's opinions or some bullshit about S.H.I.E.L.D. and Tony Stark and threatening and...what the fuck.

^and Squaremaster316. Not "Nolantards", because let's face it: there's only one, and that's him.

Idioms (Dictionary Definitions) "rattle somebody's cage" - to make someone angry on purpose. "froth at the mouth" - be in a state of uncontrolled anger that results in a fit of resentment or vexation. FYI- Time to take a few notes maybe? It'll help even the 19 year old children of the world understand things.

Ohoho, so you're older than me? Wow. Somebody here studies psychology? What's his problem?

There was an idea to bring together a group of remarkable people, so when we needed them, they could fight the battles that we never could...

The A-Team?

This isn't even arguing anymore, it's just spamming.

The worst part of all of this is that this is about to be the most popular discussion on Flickchart.

The best part is that Avengers as a single film outclasses anything else the genre has ever produced. That comes from the fact that it was the culmination of five other exceptional films. So, it paid off beyond just what one film could deliver in the past and it DESERVES to be the most popular and talked about film on any movie site. What it accomplished they said it could never be done.

^Eggtard. Pizza is the best food ever.

Ah, Yellowjacket, CaptMarvelous and Squaremaster are just awesome people. Truly. I can't stop talking about them! There's no denying it. We should bow to them. What! You don't want to bow to them, how dare you! Can't you see! They are leading the way! Leading the way to the path of sweet golden enlightenment!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can't you see!!! We need to follow the amazing example that they have laid down for us, all that chocolatey righteousness! As said above, there was this idea to bring together a group of remarkable people, this has been achieved! It was a battle to get them released, but we were triumphant!!! These films MUST!!! be argued about indefinitely, because what else should we do with our time? Discuss other films that aren't marvel or Nolan's? SHIT ON THAT!! Have some friends?Fuck 'em. What is said here will be talked about for generations. It will be printed out and pasted together, like above, to be handed around like sweet, sweet poetry that's like honey for the mind. Anymore dictionary definitions? Maybe for my comment! Oh, please let me bask in the knowledge! Maybe the definition for crazy? Because I'm crazy for you fellas. I need to be educated, we all need to be educated! Maybe the Hulk can smash me, I can only be so lucky :). Or, or maybe on the flip side the joker can put a smile on my face! Not that I need it :). Oh well, that's all I have to say. I hope the three of you keep on the path, because it's such an unlimited topic. Bye bye.

Okay, so this is now officially the most popular discussion on Flickchart. Nathan and Jeremy must be banging their heads against a wall.

This is the basest sentimentality. This is a child at prayer... PATHETIC! You lie and kill in the service of liars and killers. You pretend to be separate, to have your own code, something that makes up for the horrors. But they are a part of you, and they will never go away!...This is MY bargain, you mewling quim!

Whoa whoa whoa... let the other side be angry and bitter. Avengers really is as good as we had all hoped. Most sane people know it's the king of the genre. No need for the anger. To quote Bill Murray from Groundhog Day... "Don't drive angry."

I thought Drive Angry was okay. IT'S CERTAINLY BETTER THAN AVENGERS THOUGH. Nah, it ain't.

It's true, The Avengers did have a tremendous shortage of Nicolas Cage power. Did that hold it back? Is it something they should address in the sequel?

"STOP! This has gone on just long enough!"

^This guy.



I found Avengers to be the more entertaining film to be sure. What's incredible is that this dust-up is happening for a pair of movies that are like apples and oranges. To make head's explode here, just wait until Avengers 2 and Justice League releases weeks apart in 2015. It's going to be the "duck and cover" moment the Internet has feared since Al Gore invented it.

^Never talk about the Justice League movie ever again. It's not going to happen, every script has sucked apparently, they can't get a director, and I hate the idea of it.

"Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn. "

I believe whatever doesn't kill you, simply makes you... stranger.

"What doesn't kill you makes you stronger." -Kelly Clarkson

Avengers has done everything right and I pray that Justice League movie never comes about. It's obvious that Avengers would and always will outclass anything DC or the WB throws out to the public but I really don't think general audiences know the difference between some characters. They'll think the crap the WB is feeding them is somehow related to Marvel. That will do nothing but hurt the genre in general. Like in most cases, Marvel themselves elevates the genre but others like the WB (and what Fox did with FF, Elektra as well as Sony and Ghost Rider) drag it down.

"Ain't nobody got time for that." - Sweet Brown

With Nolan having what the majority of critics and fans call the single greatest comic book film ever and outclassing everything else DC, Marvel, Darkhorse, Image, etc have ever produced, it seems like the world is his oyster. He has simply elevated the genre to the peak of its respectability with his well textured and layered plots, outstanding characters delivering phenomenal performances, and iconic visuals, fighting against the predictable laziness of that other comic book companies.

And... here... we... go!

To them, you're just a freak, like me! They need you right now, but when they don't, they'll cast you out, like a leper! You see, their morals, their code, it's a bad joke. Dropped at the first sign of trouble. They're only as good as the world allows them to be. I'll show you. When the chips are down, these... these civilized people, they'll eat each other. See, I'm not a monster. I'm just ahead of the curve.

Have you ever danced with the devil in the pale moonlight?

Hello my dear, Complements of the season to you. I wish to express my sincere gratitude to you. My name is Miss Boobarella and my contact address is ( ) I am a young beautiful girl with full of love and caring also romantic. well I come in contact with your address and decided to contact you, I think we can click together as one body and soul. Please I will appreciate if you can use my mail address to contact me directly to my mailbox and at the same time I will show you my picture and you also know more about me. Moreover, I want you to know that distance ,race or religion is never a barrier in the course of love. Thanks for your love, understanding and co-operation. Please I hope favorably to get your reply, contact me with this email address above. I wish you a blissful and a happy moment over there. Yours sincerely, Ella

^Happy Valentines Day!

^Based on your username, when did you know you had contracted it?

That whole "Boobarella" thing made me laugh. Thank you.

A lot of talk has been thrown about that Avengers is be the best adventure film ever made, knocking out classics like LOTR, Raiders of the Lost Ark and Spider-Man 2. I believe that it is because Marvel has set this up from the start and have done so delivering some instant classics of their own. They combined the greatness of what we've already seen but added a more epic film. Avengers IS be the greatest adventure film of all-time. No other franchise got individual solo films to develop a film's characters. They had the budget and the right guy in place and he made it all work. Most everyone is saying that Marvel's The Avengers redefines the word epic.

I bet that pissed the people off at Merriam-Webster.

I didn't contract "it" as far as I know. 'Indeterminate' result sometime in late September (when I made the profile, I guess) following a routine check up. Figured it was a bullshit result based on my absolute dedication to protection and the extremely low female to male transmission rate (estimated to be below 1 infection for every 1000 incidences of penetrative vaginal boinking, discounting cases in which high viral loads or other infections are present), but was still kinda terrified. Follow up tests confirmed diagnosis as -ve. Been mostly a good boy since then, but will have another check-up some time soon... window periods, ya know? Proper condom use should reduce risk by at least 70% (conservative estimate, but, as I say, transmission rates are like 0.01% without protection). Risk from getting a bj is considered "theoretical" by some and "negligible, but not zero" by others. Risk of bowl catting is similarly negligible under normal circumstances. I don't think I'm that unlucky, or at least I hope as much. There you go. Another classically informative answer to a non-serious question.

Marvel's The Avengers redefines the word epic, much to the DELIGHT of the good people at Websters. Their job gets easier every year.

I hate most people on this site. There are times when I look at these users and I see nothing worth liking. I want to post enough comments so that I can get away from everyone. I've built up my hatred over the months, little by little. Having Squaremaster here gives me a second breath of life. I can't keep doing this on my own with these..... "people". HAAAAH!!!

Avengers is basically the best of both worlds: the overlapping stories of a man out of time learning he can still have a place in the world, a man constantly trying to control himself, for fear of the danger he poses, a man who's always been able to explain everything with technology suddenly thrown into a world of gods and aliens, and a man (god) who's trying to convince his adoptive brother, who wants to prove himself, that his true parentage doesn't exclude him from his family's love, and that he should come home -- all with the action of a fun summer blockbuster.

Can someone with Multiple Personality Disorder (which ironically, all have the same lack of personality) count as people?

The Dark Knight, Christopher Nolan's second Batman film, is something quite extraordinary for a superhero film. Like Nolan's first one, Batman Begins, the film tells of a tormented man who doesn't want to be a hero but considers it to be his responsibility, a man who's an obsessive sociopath who still tries to do good things. The Dark Knight doesn't just entertain and tell a good story. It redefines the possibilities of comic book-based movie. Batman, the alter ego of a playboy millionaire Bruce Wayne, is now the public hero of Gotham City, who helps the police even though is an officially wanted criminal. With the help of Lt. James Gordon and the new district attorney Harvey Dent, he tries to destroy organized crime in Gotham once and for all. The trio's cooperation turns out to be efficient, and soon Bruce sees a possibility to leave Batman days behind since Dent seems the more likely one to give Gotham a better and brighter future. But soon after a completely new kind of criminal arrives to Gotham: The Joker, a mass-murdering psychopath who only wants to sow terror and put Batman and Dent in front of a moral challenge. The beginning of the film is a mess. Even someone who hasn't seen Batman Begins gets to know the characters quickly, but the thing with the mob, their money and financier, Lau, is a muddle. The film needs some time getting started, but is still in many ways the best Batman film made by far. First of all, it's the most thematically interesting. Nolan deals with themes like crime, corruption, manipulation, evil's triumph over good and the limits of law with an aggressive grip. The Gotham City he has created is a morally mercurial symbol of the real world, continuously hanging on the brink of chaos. Nolan's vision is merciless and very dusky, a world where "hero" is a questionable concept and everyone is corruptible, in a way or another. The Dark Knight is also the best acted Batman film. Christian Bale in the title role and Gary Oldman as Gordon only improve their already brilliant work in Batman Begins, and the always reliable veterans Michael Caine and Morgan Freeman and Morgan Freeman as Alfred Pennyworth and Lucius Fox get more screen time and relevance which is a pleasant surprise. Maggie Gyllenhaal as Bruce's love interest Rachel is a huge improvement from Katie Holmes, who only seemed labored in Batman Begins. There are still two performances that truly stand out. And they are of course Aaron Eckhart as Harvey Dent and Heath Ledger as The Joker. The story of Harvey Dent is the sort of main thing of the movie, and Eckhart is in the the role of a lifetime, giving an overwhelmingly emotional, tragic and believable performance. Ledger's performance received hype long before the film was released, so it's clear that everything about its brilliance has already been said. But it still manages to surprise time after time. Some people have criticized the character to be one-dimensional, but that's what it's about: The Joker of this movie represents the absolute evil, chaos and madness. He is a monstrous and gruesome psycho, who is not afraid to die, has nothing to lose and is more intelligent than Batman. Ledger incarnates this dark clown and makes him one of the most frightening and immemorial villains ever seen. Jack Nicholson played him in the original "Batman" in 1989, but Ledger overpowers the performance of the 3-time Oscar-winning trouper already in his first actual scene. The Dark Knight is a classic. It is engrossing, entertaining and unforgettable, has a powerful story, terrific acting and true depth that is rare for a comic-based film. Action/superhero films just don't get any better than this.

These Marvelites want you gone so they can get back to the way things were. But I know the truth. There's no going back. You've changed things, forever.

I have to say that Avengers is one superbly written film. From great character definition and development to well orchestrated action to all the funny lines, this is one well structured movie. They also really cared enough to ground this film where possible. That's what Marvel does so well. It's what Nolan does well and that's why people call what Nolan did to Batman "Marvelizing" the character. Yet, Marvel doesn’t use just one dark note to tell their tales unlike Nolan. The story and abilities are fantastic and grand but the character and depth add the weight you need to tell a believable yet intelligent tale. That's tough to do when the subject matter is this fantastic and the elements they deal with are so grandiose. Avengers manages to pull it all together masterfully.

Nolan's multi-layered, superbly-textured masterpiece is a certified modern classic that takes many notes and aspects of film making and plays them superbly. The drama is tense, riveting and knuckle-gripping, the humor is subtle, witty and dark at different times with truckloads of charisma oozed by its sensational cast, the villain redefines the term "antagonist". Nolan has taken the Batman character to its ultimate realization, maintaining all the elements that made the character complex and fascinating while succeeding in avoiding all the cliche tropes that other comic films (and comic production companies) fall back on. The Dark Knight had truly set the standard for all CBM's, and film in general.

Avengers has something for basically everyone, and can be enjoyed on multiple levels. I mean, you've got films like Lincoln, which is an excellent movie, but obviously it's not going to appeal to an eleven-year old boy who's expecting Lincoln to start killing vampires at any minute. Then you've got films like Transformers, which is great in a visual aspect, but won't do much for some old curmudgeonly film critic who doesn't care for any color other than black or white. Avengers is basically the best of both worlds: the overlapping stories of a man out of time learning he can still have a place in the world, a man constantly trying to control himself, for fear of the danger he poses, a man who's always been able to explain everything with technology suddenly thrown into a world of gods and aliens, and a man (god) who's trying to convince his adoptive brother, who wants to prove himself, that his true parentage doesn't exclude him from his family's love, and that he should come home -- all with the action of a fun summer blockbuster. This is what makes Avengers (and really, all the Marvel movies) so great - that it quite literally has something for almost everyone. Avengers wasn't the first to achieve this balance so well, but it's done more than enough to help the future of the genre.

Oh and make no mistake, I wanted to like TDKR but to put it plainly: it’s as overrated as it gets. Batman 3 tries to be a compelling blockbuster but when you boil away the long meandering plotline, poor dialogue, and never ending cliche, the story and the movie itself may fall in to the “OK” but certainly nothing great. If you're in a generous mood and want to overlook all its flaws for old time sake that’s fine but that’s also called denial.

I'm gonna rape your sister

I like trains...

A pause at looking back as the greatness of Avengers for a public service announcement......"Captain America: The Winter Soldier" is now accepting applications online for crew positions. The film, which will be shooting in the Cleveland area in late spring, will be directed by Joe and Anthony Russo and stars Chris Evans.The Greater Cleveland Film Commission cautioned that the email address (below) is only for people interested in working on the film's crew. This is not a call for actors or extras. The film, a sequel to “Captain America: The First Avenger” from 2011, will also feature Scarlett Johansson and Samuel L. Jackson. It is slated to film in Cleveland, Los Angeles and Washington, D.C., and will be released by Disney on April 4, 2014. If you want to be on the film's crew, email your information to

Man. Scar Jo is the big weakness in these films. They need to scrub that bitch from the script or just have her walk around naked. Well almost naked, give her a muzzle.

It's like this and like that and like this and uh - It's like that and like this and like that and uh - It's like this and like that and like this and uh - It's like this and like that and like this and uh - It's like that and like this and like that and uh - It's like this and like that and like this and uh - It's like this and like that and like this and uh - It's like that and like this and like that and uh - It's like this and like that and like this and uh ----

The Black Widow was wonderful in Avengers and Scar-Jo plays her perfectly. Her scenes with Loki and Hawkeye where some of the best of the entire year regardless of film or genre. I even liked her in the action sequences and she was right, it "wasn't about the big guns." SHE closed the portal.

Bullshit, bruh. She, as consp77 noted, walks around looking "awkwardly intent" at the best of times. She doesn't possess enough raw charisma to play/embody the intense-detached dichotomy. It takes a special kind of magnetism (not sex appeal) to be that business-like with out coming off as a Kristana Loken Terminatrix emulator. I'm a fan of Natalia Romanova (even if she is a borderline racist stereotype), but you take a look at Scar's mannerisms, or lack thereof, (I dunno, is 'constipated' a mannerism?) and you don't think "Yo, dat's dat girl." She was crap in Iron Man 2, but Whedon did what Favreau couldn't and squeezed out a tolerable performance. Her ass looks good in skins though.

No one can say Joss Whedon doesn't know how to write women. He certainly brought Natasha to life and wrote a strong female hero. Both Nat and Clint did not feel out of place on a team with a thunder god, an armored billionaire playboy philanthropist and a super soldier. That in and of itself is amazing. Her interrogation scene with Loki sent chills and was as clever as it gets. (And yes, the shots of her remarkable backside in 3D didn't hurt the scene either) I found every character worthy and every actor to have done a superb job. To me, I'd say you didn't like Scar-Jo going in and her "mannerisms" stood out and annoyed you because you were looking for her "flaws".

Damn fucking phone. Gimme a sec. Gotta relocate.

You’re bypassing my point. I didn’t cast any aspersions on Whedon’s writing (in truth, it’s Avengers and his work with X:Men, obviously, that’s made me a fan). Nor did I say Widow’s part in the tale/story/plot required any tweaking. I could’ve, but I didn’t. The “cleverness” of the scenes, the pathos in the plot (or whatever you wanna call it), the gestalt... these things are by and large a product of the script. SJ is what I had a problem with. Did I expect her to suck going in? Yes, because she sucked in Iron Man 2. Did she suck as much as I expected? No, but thank Whedon for that. It’s actually to her credit that her sucking power was relatively ameliorated when you consider that she had to share the screen with three of the coolest dudes on the planet and a two or three more thespians of sound swag. She’s like chipboard; there’s texture there somewhere, but it’s always manufactured and rarely on display.

I guess I don't understand because she pulled off what was written quite well. How would have say... Emily Blunt (a popular choice to play the character before Scar-Jo was cast) been any better? It's not like Scar-Jo has no charm or no acting ability. She's had that texture on films like Lost In Translation, In Good Company and even The Other Boleyn Girl. Maybe certain expectations for darkness from the character itself played a part in some dislike?

Scarjo had subtlety and texture in Lost in Translation and The Prestige.

Love both, prefer The Dark Knight though.

Avengers proves that security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing.

You kids done yet?

They're both perfect in my eyes, but The Dark Knight is way better because of THE BEST villain of all time and it's so riveting and engaging from start to finish. The Avengers is just a pure popcorn action flick that succeeds in every way in the action genre.

Avengers is just so damn good. Marvel keeps putting out quality in waves but DC/Nolan fans have ONE movie to hang their hat on and that's TDK. EVERYTHING else the WB/DC has produced this century has been average (Batman Begins) or flat out crap (everything else) and since TDK blew up they feel the need to constantly defend and promote it. It's become a defacto defense and a paranoid one at this point.

You done yet?

Not even close. Avengers is just too good to not talk about it. My advise, click elsewhere if you don't want to talk about great movies.

With watered down versions (Iron Man, TASM) of superior products (Batman Begins), dull, uninspired, cliche junk like Captain America, Hulk and Thor to absolute crap like Iron Man 2, Daredevil, Elektra, Fantastic Four 1&2, Spider-Man 3, Ghost Rider 1&2, X-Men 3, Blade Trinity, Howard The Duck, every direct to DVD feature, all Punisher films and Wolverine, and even some that have aged poorly over the years (Blade 1&2, Spider-man 1&2), Marvel has produced enough money-wasting ventures to bankrupt 10 Orion companies. Nolan's Batman films have redefined the genre and brought it to a new level of prosperity and respectability.

You do repeat yourself quite a lot, don't you think?

They're egging you on, Mystic. Stahp.

My beef was never with Mystic, he's good people with good taste (sees Batman Returns for what it is).

Or it could be that he's just tired of all the redundancy? That's like me right now. This whole trolling thing between you and YellowJacket was (somewhat?) funny at first, but now everybody is just repeating what they've said before and it's just stale now.

Yeah, I don't really care anymore. It seems there's no stopping it. Imitating them, trying to get serious with them, arguing with them, analyzing them step-for-step, nothing helps. Also Squaremaster, I've seen the feed of your YouTube account, I've seen your blog, I've seen your posts,...why do you care so much? So what if Yellowjacket or Marvel fans in general have a "bad" taste according to you, why do you care? Oh. There I go again.

It's one thing for someone to have, in my personal opinion, "bad taste", after all, one person's trash is another person's treasure, they don't like The Dark Knight, fine. However, it's an entirely other thing to consistently create hosanna threads under 30 accounts bumped every 10 seconds and declaring that he(they) speaks for the majority of the public and then declare others who counter act him "bullies"; or using one account name, but making every single post in either bold or "all caps" font.

There'll be two dates on your tombstone And all your friends will read 'em But all that's gonna matter is the fact that you saw The Avengers movie in that little dash between 'em.

Boy, you'd have to be a pretty pathetic waste of tissue to have that on your tombstone. I think death would be preferable.

Nolanites are known for padding stats and trying to intimidating critics and fans all over the net. Why is that and why are they so bitter? Their defense of a film trilogy most think is 2/3 bad says it all. It's become a defacto defense and a paranoid one at this point. When others see new films and call it "better than TDK" it drives them crazy. After all, it's their one "good" movie and how dare anyone not worship it?

Where is this "Most think its 2/3" consensus you speak of, because it sure as hell isn't among critics and audiences in general who see it as a clean trilogy sweep of greatness. Given the fact that virtually all groups of viewers rank TDK above anything Marvel has done to date, and a significant amount also rank TDKR above Avengers, I'd say Nolan has pretty much surpassed ano other director's contribution to CBM's by leaps and bounds.

Visit any real movie site. Everyone is calling TDKR overrated and disappointing. We're the only ones even talking about TDK and BB at this point. I know they do this for all films but it these guys hit what's wrong in all three films by using humor...

This doesn't have to get any messier........ Of course it does. I've come too far for anything else. I am burdened with glorious purpose... once you accept that, in your heart, you will know peace.

But here's the problem, Squaremaster. You say there's one person who created 30-something accounts to praise the Marvel movies while you don't have proof for this. This isn't some conspiracy dude, get real. I will stop responding. Take my advice and do the same. What's the point, anyway.

Both films are awesome!

Truth be told, yes Avengers is the better film. I think it's time to stop elevating inferior products by even comparing them to Avengers. So, call it a Lenten resolution or whatever but no more use of the "n" word and going only positive seems like the way to go from here. Talk of Avengers and its epic nature should keep things above board where it should have been all along. That's my fault, lowering myself to such levels.

Given the transcendent ground The Dark Knight encompassed when it made its mighty debut nearly five years ago and the amount of films that have failed to match it in quality, it's not hard to see why Nolan is so revered throughout the comic world and film society. The performances are simply out of this world, with the late great Heath Ledger's Joker becoming THE bar to which all movie villains are measured, and Aaron Eckhart and Gary Oldman each contributing lifetime achievement level performances, with everyone else rounding off the cast nicely. Christian Bale (tied with Daniel Day-Lewis as our greatest modern actor) gives a subtle yet menacing performance reminiscent of Al Pacino in his role as Michael Corleone; Michael Caine and Morgan Freeman provide great character moments as well as subtle, sophisticated humor that is delivered with far greater execution than most films that try to cram as much unnecessary slapstick as possible (i.e. Transformers, Avengers) An iconic masterpiece of cinema and a phenomenal triumph of storytelling, The Dark Knight is a truly epic film that tops any other contribution to the genre by leaps and bounds, no matter how many jealous fanboys of rival companies bang their heads in frustration over their own failure to reach this level of relevance.

The Avengers is the superhero team movie that many of us have been waiting to see our entire lives. Every comic book fan has been awaiting the day when a feature film would embrace the sense of inter-title continuity that made comic books such a compelling, addictive medium in the first place. For once, superheroes don’t have to exist in a vacuum, and a motion picture doesn’t have to pretend that its protagonists are the first and only costumed crime fighters in existence. Be honest… even if you haven’t given it much thought, you were getting tired of that. How wonderful that was!

You didn't listen to my advice, Squaremaster. Oh well, I'm gettin' outta here.

All Cartoon Stars to the Rescue proved that just because barriers were broken in continuities between established characters and gave them a chance to interact with one another doesn't mean that the product isn't going to be a complete mess.

The Avengers is a dream come true, quite possibly literally. This is exactly the movie we’ve been waiting for. It’s excellent on almost every damned level. It really has no flaws. How great does a film have to be given the inherent difficulties in making a film like this in the first place. Writer/director Joss Whedon does an admirable job of balancing the screen time of the sprawling cast. Marvel’s done a very good job of making its superhero movies about the title characters more than the villains, which really shouldn’t have been an issue in the first place, but The Avengers is no exception to their obvious mission statement.

IMDB: TDK=9, TDKR=8.6, Avengers=8.3.......... Rotten Tomatoes: TDK 94%, TDKR=87%, Avengers=92%............. seems like they are both really good, neither are crap, and if you don't like one its probably because of your taste.

Avengers is a TRUE genuine motion picture event. There are so many characters, moving parts and expectations involved in The Avengers that the usual, succinct review system no longer applies. We need to look at and judge each aspect of the film in detail - avoiding spoilers, whenever possible - to explain why the film works as well as it works and, again, what makes this the first genuine motion picture event in many, many years.

With The Dark Knight topping the list of virtually every review site across the net, it goes to show just how much of a thrilling, visceral masterpiece Nolan's contribution to cinema truly is. With a phenomenal cast that simply drips talent, charisma and charm off the screen; combined with brilliantly written and executed plot twists and asking deep, smart philosophical questions about what it truly means to be a hero and where the line is between it and "villain", what means are necessary to maintain peace and if they're worth it. The film simply works flawlessly on every single imaginable level and is the prime definition of a completely perfect film, one that has been talked about, emulated and revered for years and will continue to be for years to come.

Undoubtedly, The Avengers is as great as most are saying. What struck me is how unique, deep yet fun the entire experience turned out. United they are strong. I realized that is exactly what the Avengers are and why they have broad appeal. The film explores the foundations of this and promotes it quite well. Sure, there’s uneasy tension and trust issues (especially with Loki working behind the scenes) but even that adds depth. Thor is dealing with actual family and the end result is true growth for all major characters depicted. The bonds these kindred spirits forge is truly special and watching it in its inception is a true treat. I’m just glad Marvel placed these characters together and invited me to join the family. I’m an Avenger fan for life now!

The Dark Knight is a layered, complex psychoanalytical drama that not only examines the social structure of today's capitalist world, but also shakes it to its very foundation. It's multi-layered in every sense of the word. Thematically, it's so relatable and relevant that it's not hard to imagine a western along its lines, a fantasy, or even a Shakespearean play. Superbly-presented themes of guilt, fear, predestination, and chance. But the most wonderful thing about the genius of Christopher Nolan is that he still respects film as an entertaining art-form, and you can pick up the delicious issues and allegories disguised in rotating hallways, flipping trucks, and pencil tricks. Truly, a master of his craft.

I'm getting good at this shit.

I’m happy to report that Avengers is the king of the genre and everything established in previous movies pays dividends in a big way. It’s not that anyone needs to see those other Avenger solo films before seeing this gem but it certainly adds depth and texture to this amazing product. Not having to intro big main characters deeply allows the action to flow but also allows for better development. This also allows them to probe deeper into the character's personalities. This heightens the tension, so often missing from comic-book movies, and adds real weight to the story as well as the action sequences which are thrilling and often mesmerizing. The result is a film that’s just flat out exceptional.


how is this a competition? The Dark Knight destroys The Avengers. The difference?The Avengers never feel very threatened by Loki, thus the film lacks tension. The Dark Knight is extremely tense, because the Joker poses a serious threat to Batman and Gotham. There is also no tension in The Avengers' action scenes.The action feels a lot more real in The Dark Knight. Nolan's use of practical techniques makes a simple set piece of a hospital exploding a lot more effective than if it were CGI generated. pretty much everything in The Avengers is CGI.

This has actually become one of the most popular discussions! I can't believe this is, but anyways...This is a straight up easy one for me: DARK KNIGHT! I love the Dark Knight but I also find it becoming heavily overrated. The Avengers, despite being a bit overrated was mediocre for me as the characters were presented in the Avengers weren't as good as they were in the Dark Knight. The direction the film takes easily goes to Dark Knight. The Dark Knight is amazing, Avengers is mediocre.

If Avengers has taught us anything it's that life's not about waiting for the storm to pass. It's about learning to dance in the rain. When it matters, true heroes know what to do.

Hey, Teen Titans taught us that as well!

At least Avengers didn’t teach us to be a quitter or to fake our own death and then run off to Europe with a criminal and a thief.

That was TDKR not the Dark Knight that happens in, Mr. expert guy

And actually, that's how I want my life to end: People love you, erect a statue in your memory... But you aren't dead, your off boning Anne Hathaway in Europe. That might actually be the coolest ending anywhere.

^ I'd say that ending would make any one of us jealous.

Avengers is just that good. Of course all the phenomenal heroes got to shine and the story accommodated them all perfectly. What I loved is that Marvel did it again with their main villain. Loki was just so wonderful and complex in this amazing movie. Spurned Loki masterfully dances on the fault lines of villainy and redemption. He always keep people guessing and. Again, that’s just shear perfection coming from the god of mischief. He has such a mixture of emotional psychological complexity. You have somebody who's capable of thinking and strategizing at the speed of light, but underneath that is a deep well of pain that at any moment threatens to boil over and Tom Hiddleston plays it like the master he has become. This is Heath Ledger Oscar worthy villain performance good.

Christian Bale proves himself as the single greatest actor of our generation by delicately balancing his character in the line between doing what is right for the people of Gotham and what is right for his fragile soul. A man who is truly pushed to the limit of what is enough to achieve peace in a world ravaged by those who want war. Combined with a charismatic performance as the "rich douchebag" and complimented perfectly by the calculating, fierce, "Original Avenger" of the night, Bale's Wayne comes off as the single most complex, intriguing, multidimensional character in all of comic book adaptations, live action or otherwise; a perfect protagonist portrayed by a perfect actor for a monumental epic of film making and story telling . In every measurable capacity, THE DARK KNIGHT is the greatest comic book film ever made.

It’s a given at this point that Avengers is the better film but that doesn’t take away from the fact that Heath Ledger was pretty cool in TDK. God Bless that man’s soul.

Pop culture seems to place TDK at the top of the comic book movie pile for good reasons. Still, RDJ was more or less solid in his last 3 iron Man roles, though he was more of a show "saver" than "stealer".

The performances in thAvengers are as good as any I’ve ever seen in an adventure film. The great actors say that acting is akin to playing tennis. The rally that they play with a new partner is completely different from one to the other. Each of these GREAT actors have such specific talents that it’s fun to see them play off each other at different times in this movie. I think Whedon realized this as both director and writer and shuffled things around on purpose to play to strengths. It’s just another wonderful aspect of this spectacular movie event. Avengers is the king of the genre.

With an iconic all star cast, THE DARK KNIGHT completely turns the comic book world on its head, revolutionizing the way people look at the genre and garnering it with an unprecedented level of respect and admiration. All the performances are outstanding, ranging from dynamic and powerful to subtle and effective, with subtle, witty and laugh-out-loud comedic bits that, thanks to Nolan's masterful direction, never get in the way of, or undercut, the phenomenally powerful drama that encapsulates the film and pulls the audiences in from the get go. THE DARK KNIGHT is not only the undisputed king of the comic book movie genre and among the elite in film making in general, but is also the single greatest piece of storytelling ever associated with the comic book medium itself.

The Avengers, and it's not even close.

Well, Marvel certainly delivered on their years of promises. Right from the close of Iron Man they were setting up this film and boy, did they manage to deliver! The Avengers delivers a little bit of everything and does it with intelligence, style and integrity. This extremely talented cast fits each character perfectly, both large and even the smaller roles. The story itself is told in a masterful and crisp manner. The dialogue is witty and the humor works its way seamlessly in to the natural order of the story but what else would you expect from Joss Whedon? The man has EARNED his master status with this jewel in his creative crown.

THE DARK KNIGHT is not only the only CB film to live up to the monumental hype, but surpasses it by leaps and bounds. The film hits the ground running right from the start and although it does give its magnificent cast time to breathe and stretch their tremendous acting muscles, it never lets up, giving us a remarkably intelligent character study, a gripping crime drama, and a heart-pounding, adrenaline-pumping action extravaganza, filled with tremendous heart, soul, a wide variety of humor and rich character development thanks to its unrivaled cast. Nolan is simply sensational; the scope of his vision is simply out-of-this-world fantastic, and has more than earned his place among the elites such as Kubrick and Hitchcock.

Again, Joss Whedon has EARNED his master status with this jewel in his creative crown. Avengers is smart as anyone that knows Whedon would expect but it remembers to be fun. That’s not to say there aren’t dark elements because the gravity of what’s presented is immense and the interaction between the characters are extremely deep and complex. That’s what makes this movie the masterpiece it deserves to be. Comic book style slugfests are certainly part of the fun but are inserted as a vehicle for the story and not just to see CGI things explode. Things aren’t blown up just for the sake of seeing them go boom. How can a movie like this pull that off? What makes a movie about a super soldier from World War Two, a futurist playboy in armor and a god of thunder really work are their relationship to one another and the incredibly good writing on display. Like Thor and the Iron Man films, it manages to ground high fantasy in to the realm of the believable.

Nolan is simply sensational; the scope of his vision is simply out-of-this-world fantastic, and has more than earned his place among the elites such as Kubrick and Hitchcock. The way the main antagonist's story is being told and yet kept very vague is nothing short of brilliant storytelling, and the raw emotions that pulls the audience into every step of the film. You go from liking the Joker and being fascinated with the amount of chaos he's reeking to wanting him stopped as the hospitalized people are being wheeled out onto the buses. Watching Harvey and Rachel share their last moments before realizing that their locations were switched is absolutely breathtakingly beautiful and jaw-droppingly brutal at the same time. Best part, all the action has meaning and not a single punch, kick or gunshot is wasted. Nolan has created a mesmerizing world that keeps the audience enraptured and on nervous/anticipatory edge. Simply put, an iconic masterpiece of film making and a phenomenal triumph of story telling.

The Avengers is really intelligent stuff. Just like The Powerpuff Girls.

MARVEL’S been on a roll since the record breaking success of Iron Man and here’s where it all pays off. And man, does it ever!!!!!!! Avengers has my vote for the very best all-time because it lives up to all the hype and all the hope. This movie was excellent and entertaining and deserves all the praise it has gotten.

Well, Squaremaster and Yellowjacket agree that they both like Downey Jr and Ledger’s performances. Is that progress?

Is that Jimmy Carter I see here? Peace in our time and all that? It's easy to see that both RDJ and Ledger brought greatness to the screen just like it's easy to see what film was more fun, compelling and entertaining and that would be Avengers.

Only Jimmy Carter? :( What do I have to do to achieve Abe Lincoln status?

THE DARK KNIGHT was easily the more entertaining, emotionally-gripping and smartly written of the two. The structure of THE DARK KNIGHT was so Shakespearean it was scary, eclipsing the works of Kenneth Branagh in the 90s.

I don't expect every tongue to sashay, every voice to lilt and every pen to dance with its owners bank of words in perfect lockstep, but - fuck a duck – several of you cunts are bad writers. I think the idea that there's anything potentially incisive here has been laid to rest some 400 comments ago, but someone should at least let it slip that aplomb isn't a fucking allergen. Sure, one couldn't expect insight in this thread given every second post is a rerun and every other reply to a riposte is a replay, but if you're gonna keep making the same cases that house the same content, at least switch up the cloaking material; cover the bullshit in some cashmere. Découpage mughphuckaz! I'd worry about drowning in the generica, but it ain't fluid that's being vented from the pens. I get it, the educational system in America is a failing operation, but you mofos are Anglophones yo. Put some swag into the keystrokes and stop using the words "layered" and "thematic"; all that inert bollocks makes you sound like Dunning-Kruger archetypes. And LOL @ grown-ups that think Shakespearean “structure” (structure???) is worth venerating. Someone didn’t get past 9th grade Lit. for Dummies. And LOL @ “integrity.” It's like we're in some liminal state 'tween retardation and brain death.


Oh, in response to those questions that got buried up there… Superhero movies, The Avengers more than most others, are fundamentally about *cool*. This has been my contention for some time. The narrative of the genre tends to play back-up to the characters (TDK and X:Men are perhaps the minor exceptions). The characters may have their standard conflict, but the conflict is usually pretty generic, right? One of the reasons Whedon succeeds more so than his peers is because he devalues (a bit of a dirty word) plot in favour of character appeal, showmanship and charisma... all synonyms for *cool* in some respect or another. Basically Joss goes for style points and he does it with a self-aware elegance in the mold of Tarantino or Kevin Smith. Scarlett Johansson, IMO, doesn't have enough *cool* or charisma to pull it off. Nor did Whedon make the character idiosyncratic enough to compensate for her blandness. Would more "darkness" have helped? Yeah, more "darkness" could have worked. More psychosis at the very least. Not because the character that Whedon wrote needed tweaking/buffing, but because it would have given SJ something more to "do". She's not magnetic enough a personality to define her own badass character. My guess is Emily Blunt would've been even worse. She seems too fragile and everyday-ish to play Black Widow. Gina Carano would've been interesting. Probably wouldn't be able to handle the dramatic "acting" aspects of the role, but she wouldn't need the script to define badassery for her because, well, she's already is a badass. I think Charlize could've pulled it off, at least until I think about Snow White and Aeon Flux (Aeon Flux was probably not her fault, but her portrayal of the Queen is wayyyy hammy). So, yeah, “darkness” could've defined the character a little bit more. That's not a critique of Whedon though; he shouldn't have to compensate. For me SJ's typical of the 'Women in Action' curse, which is an amplified curse when you have 'Women in Superhero Action'. I could wax critical about all issues germane to that Women in Action crapola, but I’m not gonna bother. But no, I didn’t find her particularly memorable in any of her other roles. She’s usually just… there. And I dislike Lost in Translation too much philosophically to pay tribute to her performance in that film.

Nicely done.

The Dark Knight is layered, multi-layered, Shakespearean, thematically rich, dark, and flawlessly structured.

When trolling is lost on the trolled can it be said that the troll that tried is truly trolling?

How great is Avengers? You really are drawn in to the world and to the each and every character right from the first act. That connection makes the action more meaningful, just like with the best of movies regardless of genre. The dialogue has been called superb by fans and critics alike for a reason. The conflict and tension present between EVERYONE (protagonist, antagonist, friend, and foe) absolutely makes the film.

I will not stand for this

There are a few things I know. One, The Avengers is the best film the genre has ever produced. Two, Map Quest really needs to start their directions on # 5. I'm pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.

Mr. Awesome sounds like he won't stand for this.

I am a little amused that some people have missed one of the points TDK and Avengers made--arguing without end gets nowhere. Like the Avengers bickering amongst them led to Loki getting the upper hand on them. Or the boat passengers debating on what to do with the detonators, until finally someone took away the choice. I think if these movies had Flickchart accounts, they would both disagree with Yellowsquare.

I find it amusing that everyone with an arrow pointing left is upset for some reason.

The charisma that Avengers packs, and there’s plenty of it, comes from the flawless performances and the dialogue. Also, the supporting cast is utilized perfectly. This is as good and as fun of a film that has ever been made. Bold statement, I know.


I have got to say, choosing from these two amazing superhero films is very difficult. However, in my personal opinion I would have to go with The Dark Knight

This is why Marvel is beating DC in the movie arena. Not taking away from TDK but Marvel had all these individual movies building up to this point and then they DELIVER something this great. I just pray it's not all down hill from here. To this point, it IS the greatest superhero movie of our time. How can they ever top Avengers?????????????????

Sure, I’ve praised other comic book films in the past but I can honestly say that The Avengers stands above them all. This movie stands so tall because it combines heart, smarts and meaningful intense action in the best ways possible. Avengers is pure adventure with heart and it very much has a soul. It’s so unlike most summer popcorn movies because even though there is spectacle everywhere, it never feels like a video game and every single scene is impactful.

I love popcorn.

Mr. Poopasaurus, I'm not upset at anything. I think both movies are entertaining, I enjoy a lot of what Whedon and Nolan come up with, and I have no problem with anyone picking one of these movies over the other. I just think this discussion isn't constructive, and I wanted to point out that even the movies agree with that point (if they were sentient). Anyway, seeya in other discussions.

Avengers remembers what the cinema is for... ENTERTAINMENT but delivers that entertainment will intelligence and flare. It doesn't want to insult intelligence like other lesser "blockbusters." Like most of Marvel’s efforts, it’s smart but fun. THAT is what the cinema is for and Avengers is a unique treat to be savored and enjoyed.

With the uninspired dullness of Whedon's flaccid addition to Marvel's "Phase 1" (which is just a glorified 12 hour extended cut of Independence Day), it's clear that Marvel is officially stuck in a monotone rut that features bad character writing, ridiculously contrived plots, and stock villains that you could find in any direct-to-video schlock.

Hahah. "Monotone rut"...

My interest is in the future because I am going to spend the rest of my life there. Avengers is the future. Nolan is the past. He's done, Marvel will roll on. Even Nolan zombies can see that factor. Not only is Avengers the king of the genre but it can rule as that king over the years. TDK is a film a lot will remember fondly but many others will correctly define it as average and have moved way past it.

Nolan's magnificent contribution to the comic film genre has had such a massive impact on the industry that will be remembered and praised throughout time as the single greatest accomplishment that has ever come out of the comic book/graphic novel medium itself. The undisputed king of the film genre with Oscar caliber performances from every angle, far more so than the generic Avengers film that lacks substance.

One of the many many things that I loved about The Avengers movie is that there's an evolution to all the lead characters. Each and every one of them has evolved and changed from their own individual movies. This is what makes these characters so great. Cap is no longer the Boy Scout, pure heart. He is a man out of time and truly wonders if he has a place or purpose any more. That is so much different then from when we last saw him. Thor is also very conflicted but determined not to go back to his shallow and self-absorbed past self. Loki has evolved a ton as well. He’s more self-possessed, he's way more menacing. Loki is getting to know himself. We left Loki in Thor spiritually confused. The Loki in Avengers is confident, bitter and thinks he knows what he wants and how to get it. Spreading his pain to others is a fine way to accomplish his goals. Tony Stark is…Tony Stark. Despite his attitude there’s more than meets the eye. Add the humanity of The Black Widow, Fury, Hill, Coulson and Hawkeye and you have wonderful texture.

Ugh! You guys, I just had THE WORST--DREAM! I had a dream that something happened to Chris Nolan before he could film The Dark Knight Rises and JOSS WHEDON filled in for him! Ugh! Joss! Keep your chocolate out of my peanut butter, motherfucker!

This comment debate makes the Godfather Part 1 vs Part 2 debate look like child's play.

The Dark Knight has earned it's place as one of the greatest movies of it's time, and went to places the general audience wouldn't expect from a batman movie. This is a very philosophical movie about chaos and how it can effect a society made up of rules, and with this kind of story, you have your characters going to very dark places which in a way makes this movie's story in the style of a tragedy. Why the dark knight is such a groundbreaking movie, is because you have a mostly fantasy genre going into the styles of crime movies, and dramas in some cases, making this movie on an Oscar best picture level. And to top it off you have such an ensemble of a cast with many great performances from lots of top grade actors. Really I could go on and on about how great a movie that this is, and to be honest I don't think any other comic book movie will achieve the great ambitions of The Dark Knight Trilogy as a whole, with this one breaking the rules of where the genre could go.

Avengers is so good that it makes you think. A stumbling block to the pessimist is a stepping stone to the optimist. Think about it.

Neither film appealed to me hugely. The Avengers was great fun and action-packed and The Dark Knight was gritty, realistic and dark. This more of a vs against light-hearted comic book films and realistic comic book films. I'm going with the Dark Knight because, mainly, of Heath Ledger as the Joker. I found the story good but the acting was fantastic.

Neither film appealed to me hugely. The Avengers was great fun and action-packed and The Dark Knight was gritty, realistic and dark. This more of a vs against light-hearted comic book films and realistic comic book films. I'm going with the Dark Knight because, mainly, of Heath Ledger as the Joker. I found the story good but the acting was fantastic. The Dark Knight wins for me

I enjoyed Marvel's other films a lot but Avengers lands above them all. The one critique of a few of those films was the action. "Why didn't Iron Man and the Monger have a longer fight?" or "Thor vs The Destroyer should have lasted longer." No one is going to say anything like that here. Wave after wave of incredible action done superbly. The action beats are interwoven with each other perfectly. Following the epic Helicarrier stuff with that whole finale was like having incredible sex, sipping an energy drink and then going back to have even better sex. That's the cinematic version of total happiness and satisfaction.

With magnificent acting, writing, direction, texture, depth and adrenaline-pumping action set pieces, THE DARK KNIGHT is an absolutely incredible and perfect cinematic experience. An absolute masterpiece in every distinguishable fashion. With an absolutely explosive opening to introduce the greatest mainstream villain in movie history, combined with rich character development perfectly spliced within the narrative and an epic score that is tense, chilling, thrilling and epic simultaneously, THE DARK KNIGHT is the most stimulating experience of the 21st century, like having transcendent sex with God and reaching Nirvana. There ares simply no flaws to be found throughout the entire 2h 30m run time.

These faggots are devaluing sex. That pisses me off. There's not much that pisses me off, but that pisses me off.

Anyway, I I've got less than 1000 movies to go now. I'm gonna use this thread to drop my favourite rap bars and punchlines. Let's see if I can hit one for every movie added. Why? I like to amuse myself. Let's kick it off with Celph. "My clique is raw, be prepared when you meet us. Kill an unborn baby and you still couldn't de-foet-us."

The final act of Avengers does play out like a multiple orgasm and it is just as rewarding. You can have sex any time but seeing Avengers for the first time is geekgasmic. Plus, even after the first time (which you will always remember) it should always play out like two hours of pure satisfaction. Avengers really is that good.

"It's either 'cause their boyfriend's a scrub like Brillo, or 'cause Banks is cooler than the other side of the pillow."

My suggestion is that you've been fuckin' the wrong bitches if you really believe that shit.

"The young niggas read like they slow, but you give 'em a blunt bet they roll weed like a pro."

"I ain't with this rap shit, dawg, I lit'ally kill 'em. I'll put the Colt 45 to your lips like Billy Dee Will'ams."

"I'm from the hood / my car's not made out of wood / it's plain to see my rap style's pretty good"

Monosyllabic rhymes? Lack of mic skills or homage to the retro? You decide.

Lack of mic skills, for sure.

"Rhyme Asylum! You’re left with anaphylactic shock once I sting into action. Ninja assassin, taken under the wing of a dragon. After I was born the Bible's author's had to print a retraction."

You really have got a lid on it, haven't you? What's your secret? Mellow jazz? Bongo drums? Huge bag of weed?

"You ain't even gotta bring your boyfriend out... We can turn the lights off and play 'Who's in Your Mouth.'" @Yellow I don't really have a secret. Six or seven meals a day, P90x, whores, free time and a lot of Kush, obviously.

Wtf just happened?

Booooh!! Get off the stage.

Seek out the Avengers, embrace the greatness. People get what they want in life when they reach the point at which they can see themselves having what they seek. It's crazy to think that any other film in the genre can compete with Avengers or as the Italians would say...E assolutamente pazzesco!

Or as the Dutch would say...Hou eens op met dat eeuwenlange gezeik.

Nobody boos a nobody. "Dead in the middle of little Italy, little did we know that we riddle two middle-men that didn't do diddily."

riddled* "They call me Kublai Khan! Ready for war with a Ruger 9! I'm ready with a machete for Rudy Giulian'. I'm ready for anybody who want war; y'all ain't nice with the hands you can't brawl. You can't stall, behold the black horses. I'm runnin' up in ya church to smack crosses."

I think I've actually managed to break the system!!! Huzzah!!!

Testing. Testing.

Mark Twain would have been an Avengers fan. He said to keep away from small people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great. Avengers is true greatness that hit the silver screen.

Not sure if discussion is glitched or got blocked for more comments...

If you're a fan of epic adventure movies, then AVENGERS is your dream come true. It's the type of film you fantasized about growing up! It really is the ultimate superhero mash-up and it's done perfectly. So much better than TDK.

The Dark Knight reigns supreme, nothing more needs to be said.

What happened here? Did baby make a boom boom?

You have no power here, Gandalf the Grey (or whoever)!

Avengers simply outclasses ALL competition by a lot.

Agree, The Avengers is cinema at its finest. The most entertaining film in its genre.

The Dark Knight. The single greatest comic book film ever made and by far the most influential film of the 21st century.

The Avengers is considered by most to be the single greatest comic book film ever made. It's the undisputed champion for a reason.

5 years later and THE DARK KNIGHT is still considered the greatest comic book film ever made and the greatest piece of storytelling to be associated with the medium itself.

I love how the recent comments aren't showing up anymore on this discussion. Oh, wait...

I see the quality in The Dark Knight, but there are a number of reasons I prefered the Avengers: 1) I like super hero movies better than super villain movies. Batman was a supporting character in his own film. 2) I prefer Marvel over DC, I'm just a bigger fan of the characters in the Avengers. 3) Avengers didn't take itself so seriously, so I found myself less bothered by logical inconsistencies. 4) I love to laugh, Dark Knight didn't offer that at all.

Avengers is the undisputed champion of the genre. I'm so glad most agree and have stopped even trying to argue.

With a much stronger External plot than the Avengers, it's no wonder the majority consider THE DARK KNIGHT to be the superior product.

It's amazing to me, that despite the fact their comments don't show up, they're still commenting.

The Avengers is as amazing as any movie in recent memory. TDK, not so much.


As most are saying, Avengers is a remarkable and entertaining effort that's the best of all-time.

I can't believe that this is even a competition....The Avengers is cool but the Dark Knight is far better. And yet, the Avengers is winning by 16!?!?

Avengers is the best ever and most people know that to be true.

I thought avengers was entertaining, but nothing more than a forgettable super hero movie. I enjoyed both iron mans far more and the dark night was in a whole nother league when compared to the avengers. I just was expected more originality, but got what I expected a pretty entertaining super hero mosh pit.

Avengers has raised the bar for the genre. The best ever by far.

The Dark Knight truly transcends the genre of comic book films, throwing out many of the cliches for better quality film making than anything Marvel has ever produced.

Avengers is simply the king. Long live the KING!

Simply the Greatest CBM ever made, THE DARK KNIGHT is simply the undeniable best.

Avengers is just one of many Marvel films that craps on TDK. Face front true believers.

THE DARK KNIGHT thoroughly curb stomps anything Marvel's crap factory has squeezed out. It's simply a superior quality piece of work.

WOW! Avengers combines the thrills of a big summer romp with the craftsmanship of a prestige studio picture.

THE DARK KNIGHT'S smart, sophisticated and subtle humor is a refreshing change from the lazy, generic, OTT slapstick that other films of the genre squeeze out.

Consensus = Avengers is superb! Great Casting, Superb Direction and Best Ever

Every movie aficionado: THE DARK KNIGHT = phenomenal depth, iconic texture, transcendent quality!

There’s no doubt, Avengers is considered by most to be the best action/adventure movie ever made.

"THE DARK KNIGHT: The greatest crime drama/CBM/study of a psychopath ever made." Signed, The World.

Believe all the big time critics, Avengers is one exceptional movie and the best the genre has ever produced.

5 years later, THE DARK KNIGHT is still the best reviewed and loved CBM the genre has ever produced.

Avengers does the near impossible and that’s improve on Marvel's five other studio films. The best ever no doubt.

THE DARK KNIGHT transcends everything that the Comic book medium has ever produced.

Avengers is indeed the best ever. Bring on the Avengers 2 because I can’t get enough of this stuff!

With THE DARK KNIGHT, a bar has been set that no other film of the genre can ever reach.

Avengers is, without question, truly the best movie the genre has ever seen. Can Avengers 2 match it is the only question now.

THE DARK KNIGHT is easily the greatest piece of story telling/film making the comic book medium has ever produced. TRUTH!

As this century started, who would have thought that Avengers would be the best ever?

Comments still don't show up, y'know...

Consensus = Avengers is superb! Great Casting, Superb Direction and Best Ever!

The Avengers is a dream come true! Everyone is calling it the best ever for a reason.

THE DARK KNIGHT: universally regarded as the single greatest CBM the genre has ever produced. TRUTH!

The Avengers certainly holds the title as producing the best comic book movie of all-time!

Avengers is called the best adventure film of the new millennium by the critics for a reason. Great film.

Avengers is called the best adventure film of the new millennium by the critics for a reason. Great Movie!

THE DARK KNIGHT'S undefeated streak for best CBM continues to this day! Simply the best on so many levels!


Avengers is the root of all evil. Nolan is GOD!


These two movies have totally different tones and atmospheres. Dark Knight was more serious while Avengers seemed to be a lighthearted popcorn flick. I loved both, but Dark Knight was the better movie. Notwithstanding, Avengers was more fun and entertaining. Again though, Dark Knight was better in the sense of a tighter plot and better character development. Avengers just seemed a bit rushed. The scope and premise of the movie was entirely too large for a single movie. It should've been made into a trilogy. But the way the movie ended, there's no need for a trilogy. Of course, you could come out with a sequel, but that's altogether different from a trilogy in the sense that trilogies typically have the first installment ending with unfinished business while the next installment picks up exactly where its predecessor leaves off. Not the case with Avengers. There was definite closure for that "episode". Thus, a sequel could be made but not a trilogy. Again, fun movie but a bit rushed considering the scope. It was a smorgasbord of Marvel characters all thrown together where the plot and ending culminated prematurely. Again, Avengers was a fun movie but not nearly as technically sound as Dark Knight. The only gripe I have with Dark Knight is Christian Bale's annoying voice as Batman. I actually enjoyed him as Bruce Wayne more than as Batman. But Heath Ledger more than made up for it with his rendition of Joker. Ledger nailed it. Take Ledger out of this picture and it quickly goes from a great movie to an average movie. Thank you for your performance Ledger, R.I.P. Dark Knight wins.

Wow. I loved both of these movies. I experienced each film in a big, packed cinema. During TDK you could hear a pin drop at times, everyone was so immersed in the movie. For Avengers, it was probably my most enjoyable cinema experience for a long while, I can't remember the last time everyone laughed together like that, it was so much fun. But I love Batman more than The Avengers, so that's my choice!

Wow. I loved both of these movies. I experienced each in a big, packed cinema. During TDK you could hear a pin drop at times, everyone was so immersed in the movie. For Avengers, it was probably my most enjoyable cinema experience for a long while, I can't remember the last time everyone laughed together like that, it was so much fun. But I love Batman, and Heath Ledger, more than The Avengers, so that's my choice!

How is this even a question?

TDK, barely.

Without a doubt, 'The Avengers' is the better directed, better written, and more competent movie. While 'TDK' is the best in Nolan's Batman films it suffers from some bad action sequences, huge pacing issues, and being a bad sequel (being a bad sequel does not make it a bad movie when it stands on it's own). Sure, 'The Avengers' has some cheesy lines but the whole Marvel Cinematic Universe really embraces it's comic book origins, and at times, those could be cheesy as well.

The Dark Knight's tighter screenplay, superior performances and higher quality direction make it the superior product.

All hail the comic book film! The golden age is upon us.

The Avengers is the definition of a popcorn film, and it owns that label, making for one of the most all-around entertaining movies I've seen. However, as a popcorn film, it is prone to fading out of my memory not long after I've watched it, whereas The Dark Knight sticks with me for some time, largely due to its wealth of iconic moments, most of which involve Heath Ledger's Joker. TDK it is, then.

The Avengers, Probably the best film of 2012. But The Dark Knight, one of the greatest films ever

The Dark Knight was a more serious movie with a serious tone that set a serious mood. The Avengers felt more like a light-hearted, high-octane popcorn flick compared to TDK. Don't misunderstand me here: I adore The Avengers for what it is, but TDK is on another plane field altogether in terms of substance. TDK's plot was MUCH more polished and so was the acting and character development. The only edge The Avengers has over TDK would be special effects. That's about it. Other than that, TDK is hands down the more quality movie.

The Dark Knight all the way. Absolutely no contest

The Dark Knight is the best interpretation of Batman on screen ever and probably forever more. It's dark, stylish and draws you into it's world. Avengers is Spectacular and without a doubt the best superhero movie ever made. The Dark Knight wins it for me though, because it doesn't feel like a superhero movie, it feels like a movie. Think of it like this: The Dark Knight is Heat and The Avengers is Die Hard.

The Dark Knight drew me in emotionally a bit more than The Avengers, so it gets the win here.

The Dark Knight wins this one. It's a mammoth film that will stand the test of time. The Avengers is unquestionably entertaining and was a huge success in faithfully translating the spirit of a comic book from the page to the silver screen, but it's certainly not a great film. The Avengers is a lot like Batman (1989) in that they were both massive hits that get worse with age due to their thin scripts and lack of character development.